Conversations with the enlightened.

Archive for December, 2010

The long goodbye

Merry Christmas. : )

You too!

You accept Jesus as your Savior. : )

No I don’t.

Christmas is the birthday of Jesus. you celebrate Jesus.

Yes, I celebrate Christmas. No, I don’t believe in Jesus.

Atheist?

Yup.

I will pray for you for you are clinging on to nothing.

I’m sure you’d like to believe that.

Yes because it is the truth.

A truth with no evidence supporting it. X)

It is truth sir.
i have proof

Please present it.

ask me any question and i will answer.

What proof is there that your god exists?

Why there is alot of proof.
like
the world the galaxy who created that.
it did not just appear.

I agree that it didn’t just appear. What proof is there that your god created it?

it was made.
the proof is nothing else could have created it.

Can you prove that?

also
yes i can be quiet and i will
who do you think created you?

I grew from the union of my parents gametes. Can I see your proof that your god exists now?

I will ask the questions.

Jawohl, herr commandant!

who created you parents?

They grew from the union of their parents’ gametes.

let me save some time and ask who created the very first organism?

That doesn’t make any sense. A “who” would presumably be an organism, so you’re postulating an organism before the first organism.

Let me put it into terms “you” will understand.

Please “do.”

lets say “what” created the very first thing?

One plausible hypothesis is that a simple self-replicator formed which served as an ancestor of the simplest unicellular life. Of course, there’s no way to know exactly how it occurred.

ah but there is.
here is some of my proof.

Ah, finally.

everything the bible says will happen has happen.
it is not a concidence.
for it is God.
With just this little bit of proof certainly you will realize that your thinking is wrong.

So the bit where the world ends and the stars fall from the sky, that’s happened?

It will.
just like everything else.

So when you said “everything the bible says will happen has happen,” you meant “Some of it has happened, some of it hasn’t.”

not yet
but it will

Can you prove that?

Just have faith in God and that is all the proof in God.

So you don’t actually have proof, then.

Can you try something for me?

Maybe. What is it?

I have proof and this is it.

If this is the proof, why’d it take you so long to get around to it?

this is what i want you to do.
do you promise you will be honest with me.

Of course.

here it is
this is what i want you to do.

Yes?

this might take a second to type ok?
I want you to ask inside your mind and ask “God are you real and is your son real?For so did he die on the cross for me to wash me of my sin?
when you do that tell me if you get a good feeling.
I mean “when” you get a good feeling.

I did it, and it did not produce a good feeling.

The good feeling of warmth, that is Jesus reaching you.

It wasn’t a good feeling of warmth.  More a feeling of mild embarrassment and irritation.

you did not produce it but God did.
I know you did.

XD So now you’re telling me that I had a good feeling.

You are saying that because I have brought proof before you.

You haven’t brought proof; you asked me to do something, and even though I obligingly did it, nothing was proved.

I am not going to make you become a christian, you will have to do that.But can you at least think about it sir.I can see good in you.

…Of course you can see good in me. I’m a good person. Christianity and goodness are not the same thing.

ah but they are.They both have things in common….They both are good.

One can be just as good without Christianity as one can be with.

This is true but you can be better with christianity.
Listen as one brother to another.

That doesn’t make sense. You say “This is true,” but then you go on to contradict what you claim you’re agreeing with.

can you please silence your self so I can speak?
I am not a fast typer.
sorry about that.

Go ahead.

thank you.
Proof if is actually a question.How do you think everything got started?

We don’t currently have the data to determine with any certainty the origin of the Universe.

Not what scientists think I asked you what YOU think.

That’s what I think.

You just said there was no theroy so that means you think nothing.

It means there’s no way to know yet.

No it means there is no hope in you.

XD My hope for life doesn’t really hinge on which scenario for the origin of the Universe ends up being proven.

To you everything is science but answer this,who created science?

Scientific thinking is a human creation.

really
how did that person get that knowledge?

Get what knowledge? Science is just a way of thinking; all functional humans employ it to some extent.

Exactly!It is just a way of THINKING.
not truth

It’s an effective way of determining the truth.

No it is an effective way to make people think that they can do whatever they want.But it is not.

XD You seem to be a little confused. What exactly do you think scientific thinking entails?

There is my proof.

Your proof of the existence of the Christian god is that you think science is bad because you don’t understand it?

You do not have an answer.

An answer for what?

for my question.
at least think about what I said sir.

Which question? The one about the origin of the Universe?

yes that and all the other questions I asked.

So your proof that the Christian god exists is that humanity doesn’t yet know the answer to every question? You might as well “prove” the existence of your god by asking me the capital of Myanmar; I don’t know that either.

Exactly that are to ignert to accept the truth.
not a history question a life question
Some people are to ignert to accept the truth.

X) Tell me about it.

about what?

I was speaking rhetorically.

If you do not want to hear what I have to say just tell me.

I’ve been asking you to give me proof for a while now. If I didn’t want to hear your proof, I wouldn’t be asking.

Thank you.I am glad you actually want to hear what I have to say.
let me give you a list of examples.

Surely you see that the fact that we don’t yet know the origin of the Universe isn’t proof of your god, though.

1.who created the first thing2.how did things get started3.Who is helping us?
know what the answer is……….God

1. We don’t yet have the data to determine what the origin of the Universe was. 2. See question one. 3. Nobody, though sometimes we help one another.

because God created it.

Can you prove that?

I just did.

No you didn’t. You asked me some questions which I answered, then declared that your god exists.

no you provided fake answers

In what way do you believe my answers were false?

because no evidense supports your answers but I have evidence that supports mine.

Sure, my answers are evidenced. Do you want me to prove that we haven’t yet determined the origin of the Universe?

I am not trying to argue to the point with you.All I am say is that think about what I have said.
It has been nice meeting you sir.

I *have* thought about it. You’ve provided no evidence, just asked some questions and then declared your god to exist.

I wish you luck in your journey and merry christmas.
fare well sir

XD And good luck convincing anybody that “Who created the Universe?” is proof that the Christian god did.
Goodbye.

I have prooved it to you.And I will to others.
good bye sir.

You’ve proved nothing. All you’ve done is made claims and then failed to substantiate them.
Bye-bye.

ah that is you who have failed.
now can we please stop talking I am hungry.
It was nice meeting you.

Not in the least; I’ve defended all of my positions with reason and evidence.
Hey, if you want to go, go. Goodbye.

think about what i said.

No amount of thinking will make proof materialize out of thin air.

it already has

No, it hasn’t. I’ve asked for proof, and all you’ve given me is, “Who created everything?”, a question which I’ve answered repeatedly.

no you have not
now good bye

Of course I have. The fact, however much you may not want to accept it, is that we just don’t have the relevant data yet.
Bye. : )

just say goodbye man

I’ve said goodbye about five times so far.

with any comment
i mean without any comment
good but
i mean

I’m entitled to make a comment if I choose. If you want to go, just go without trying to slip in the last word.

good bye
good bye
remember what i said

It’s not as if I haven’t heard it before; it’s the same thing all religious zealots say, in essence.

remember this conversation good bye
haha real funny now God bless you and good bye

Honestly, I’ll probably forget it after a few weeks; it’s not like it’s the first argument I’ve had over religion.
Bye-bye!

to bad bye
hopefully you will come to Jesus one day

And hopefully one day you will come to the realization that we need evidence to justify belief.
Bye! : D

you have convinced me to something

That “Who created everything?” isn’t proof that the Christian god exists?

you convinced i need to help more people.
good bye

Hopefully one of the people you try to “help” will be able to successfully set you straight.
Bye-bye!

bye

Bye!

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God is real because God is real because God

Jesus was son of god, he died for your and my sins. GOD HIMSELF died for you and me!

Got any proof of that?

Yes. The Bible
And His Holy Spirit lives in each one of us. Living proof because the Holy Spirit speaks to us

In what way do you believe the Bible proves anything?

It proves everything! In every way!
Everyone needs Jesus!

In what way does it prove anything? Please try to be specific.

Jesus is alive.
Specific? There is no specific. The Bible proves everything in eevery way possible!

So the Bible proves that your god doesn’t exist?

No. It proves He DOES exist!

You said that the Bible proves everything, though. That would mean that it proves your god’s nonexistence as well as his existence.

It proves everything that is in it, dummy.
A god can’t be existent and nonexistent. You’re contradicting yourself in the same sentence

I know it’s contradictory, but I’m not the one claiming the Bible proves everything; you are.

Just read it

I have read it.

You know what I mean

No, not really. “It proves everything in every way possible” sounds like nonsense to me.

Just ehatever. Believe what you want. You won’t get into Heaven. And you will burn in Hell eternally if you don’t change

Do you have any proof that that’s true?

Yes. God himself who speaks to me

And in what way does the fact that you believe a god speaks to you prove that that’s true?

He isn’t ‘A’ god, He is ‘THE ONLY GOD’!

Yes, but there are about a thousand ‘THE ONLY GOD’s.

In different religions. But they are all false
Christianity is the only true religion with the ONLY TRUE GOD!

Got any proof of that?

Proof of what?

That Christianity is the only true religion with the ONLY TRUE GOD.

Because it is. Says so in the Bible

And what makes you think that the fact that something’s written in the Bible means that it must be true?

Because the Bible is the manual on how to live our lives!

So anything that’s written in a manual for living one’s life must be true.

The Bible is the ONLY manuel

No; there are many other books offering advice on life.

Like I said, none of them are true

Can you prove that?

God can through me, but youw on’t listen

I’m listening; you’re just talking nonsense.

So bye. I’m done talking to you

Bye-bye. : )

I’m talking truth, not nonsense.

Then why can’t you offer any proof other than “It’s written in a book which is true because it’s true!”?

I am offering proof…GOD HIMSELF!

Can you prove that your god exists?

Yes

Please.

Please what?

Go ahead and furnish your proof.

No. No use talking to someone who won’t believe it

If you had proof, I’d certainly believe it.

No you won’t…stop lying

Sure I will. Don’t blame your inability to present proof of your claims on me.

It’s not inability. It’s your inabililty to ask GOD to prove it to you Himself.

X) So you have proof, but you can’t show it to me until I lodge a request with your god.

No, God has the proof if you ask Him

And why can’t you present the proof you supposedly possess, again?

I can’t PHYSICALLY show you proof, but I can tell you. And God can SHOW it to you

Okay, I’ll bite. EXCUSE ME! CHRISTIAN GOD! PLEASE FURNISH ME WITH PROOF OF YOUR EXISTENCE IN THE NEXT SIXTY SECONDS.

He won’t do it if you test him like that. God doesn’t like you testing him. It’s one of his most Deadly Sins

X) Well, that’s what data is for– testing assertions.

But if you test him within a certain time limit, He can’t and won’t reveal anything to you

Why not? If he’s omnipotent it shouldn’t be any trouble.

He is omnipotent, but He spews you out of His mouth for that

What, for making a reasonable and civil request? If he’s so damn bent on having me believe in him, surely he’d be more than willing to provide a little evidence.

How is it reasonable if it’;s within 60 seconds? Are you crazy?

For an omnipotent being, 60 seconds should be no problem.

Whatever. I’m done. Just think about what I’ve told you. And then talk to God
Don;t say anything back

If there were any truth to your claims, you would have been able to provide proof for them. Goodbye!

I can through God
Bye!

No you can’t; you’ve already demonstrated your inability to do that.

Have not.

I thought you were done.


Chalking it up

JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD

Got any proof?

yes the bible

In what way is the Bible proof that Jesus was the son of a god?

because it is gods word

How do you know that it’s a god’s word?

BECAUSE HE TOLD PEOPLE IS DREAMS IT WAS

What?

you are dum i wont see you in heaven i guess

You still haven’t shown me any proof that your claims are true.

the flood
the bibile says it hapend

Yup, the Bible does say that.

and a lot of other things that are true are in the bible
like that jesus was the son of god

So what you’re saying is that because some of the things in the Bible are true, that means everything in the Bible must be true?

first off yes they are second how do these people know the stuff to wirte it down god told them about it to show people hes real jesus was the son of god but your brain just doesnt want to think its true

Well, you must believe Hogwarts exists, then.

no

Some of the things in the Harry Potter books are true, therefore you must believe that everything in them is true.

what you arent geting its all true

I know you think that it’s all true, but you haven’t shown me any proof that it’s all true.

read the bible i am going to tell you to read john just do it then read revelations

I have read the Bible.

well read it again and think about whats its saying then go to a church and ask the pastor about it

And what do you believe that would accomplish?

it would open you eyes

My eyes are open. I’m asking you to present proof that your beliefs are true, and you aren’t doing it.

one thing i know i am tired of trying to get you to see whats true i will be going to heavon
i am sorry i need you to go to heavon lets get the bible i will tell you somethings
first let me say when you look up at the sky and you see all the stars can you say gods not real i cant why because that all just didnt h

Sure, I can look at the stars and say that god’s not real.

happen god creted it all he saw how we needed a person to show us he sent his only son
john 3:16 for god so loved the world he gave his only son so that who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life

I’m familiar with John 3:16. It’s one of the most quoted passages from the Bible.

its telling you right god sent his son

Yup, that’s what it says. No reason to think that it’s true, though.

man right now the devil is hardening your heart so you wont get saved

I’m asking you to provide proof that your claims are true. If you can’t provide that proof, that’s your fault, not the devil’s.

a have a book for you to read it can give you tones of proof is caled 23 minutes in hell
moses

And does it include proof that’s tangible and verifiable, or is it just a story about someone who thinks he had a vision of Hell?

provides proof after you read it your life will be changed

All right; what proof does it contain?

all the things it will take for you to see that gods real and his son is

Can you give me an example of the proof this book presents?

like what god does the reason you should be saved and that jesus spoke to this guy and said he is coming back very very soon

So… what sort of proof does this book contain?

that jesus is real he speakers to people
things jesus did walked on water turned water to wine healed people
he did everyhting in the name of the lord

So you’re saying that this book contains proof that Jesus walked on water.

god gave power to moses to part the sea so gods people can be safe

I’m familiar with the story.

gods talked to people got creat the earth in 6 days

Can you prove that any of these stories are true?

yes the bible says it and there proof that the thing shappend just liek the flood
people that dont belive in god say that the earth was covered in water at one point
da it was the flood things just dont happen

Why should “the Bible says it” be proof that something’s true? And there’s no evidence that the surface of the Earth was ever entirely submerged by water, by the way.

i am geting to that just listen
evidence how are fossils made and why are fossile found on the talest mountain

Fossils are formed when minerals surrounding an organic structure seep into and eventually replace that structure– replacing the material, but preserving an impression of its shape.

fossils are made by rapid buriel something has to burry them so fast thats how they are made

Fossils are found on mountains because plants and animals sometimes die on mountains.

not the talest one

Why not?  There’s microbial life on Everest.  Also, fossils were probably embedded in the Earth’s crust long before that piece of the crust was pushed up to such an altitude that it became less inhabitable.

why because when the flood happend the water covered even the talest mountain thats why people find fish fossils up that high

There’s no particular reason to think that that happened.  Tectonic movement accounts for marine fossils found in elevated areas.

second geting to the good part how olds the earth

About 4.5 billion years.

wow
people where drilling and after the many 1000s of feet or 100s of feet they found tree stumps down that far how did they get down there

I’d have to know more specifics about the instance.

they dated the rocks around the trees 6 million years old and the trees 3 million years old how does something young then that get into s
how does the trees that are 3 million years old get into something 6 million years old

Possibly due to tectonic activity or sedimentation, though I’d have to know more specifics about the instance.

how because the worlds on 6 thousand years old how did that happen the flood thats how trees are down there and fossils

Can you prove that?

what did noah take on the ark and how where all the aniamls not fighting
yes yes yes

Cool; let’s see the proof, then.

how could the world be 6 million years old
and not have a record anywhere that its that old

The age of the Earth is not six million years.

why because its made up people like you belive whatever they hear and think its true
i am useing it as a example

XD Speak for yourself. I can buttress any of my claims with evidence.

a guy makes one thing up you all belive we came from nothing

I don’t believe that we came from nothing.

ok i will ask you how is the world how many years it is

As I said a minute ago, the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old.

how is it if starts dont last that long how does the earth last that long
or the sun or moon

How does the Earth last that long? Well… it’s a big ball of rock floating through space. No particular reason it shouldn’t “last.”

i am done trying to get you to see i tried lets hope the lord opens your eyes

XD You did not provide one scrap of evidence.

lol i provide enough for a blind person to get saved

“A fossilized tree was found adjacent to older rock!” is not proof that the Christian god exists.

have fun knowing that you wont go to heavon becasue you just shot down the only chance for you to get saved

XD So you mock people whom you believe are going to be tortured for eternity? How compassionate.

i do not

Oh yeah? Then what am I meant to take from “have fun knowing that you wont go to heavon”?

i am saying i tried to save your life you just dont care

I do care; it’s just that you haven’t provided any proof that your claims are true.

well its like your happy you know you wont go to heavon becasue you dont belive in jesus you dont want him as your savior and you dont go
god
i would am going to tell you take 1 hour out of your day go to a church and talk with thepastor a christian

Sure, I won’t go to Heaven, but neither will you. And, yeah, I’m okay with that.

wait how wont i

Because your beliefs are false. There is no Heaven.

so you say we all just go to hell

No; there’s no Hell either, thankfully.

wow you are all messes up so where do we go
messed

There’s no reason to believe that our personalities “go” anywhere.

so we are ghosts

No, I don’t believe that we turn into ghosts. What I’m saying is that there’s no reason to believe that anything comes after death, for the dead individual.

so your bron again
born

There’s no reason to think that, after death, people go to an afterlife, become ghosts, are reincarnated, or anything.

so the nothing just poooooof

Presumably.

wow i am sorry for you buddy i will pray for you
i tired everything this talk is for someone else
have a nice night i will be praying for you whats your name

No need to pray; just present me with some proof if you ever find it.

tell me your name so i can pray for you

If your god’s omniscient, he’ll know whom you’re referring to.

he does know just wanted to know your name
you make your on chose to think god isnt real when he is he give you so many chances

Belief isn’t really a choice in that sense. Can you just choose to believe in unicorns?

yes

Okay. Believe in unicorns, then.

you ar e just dum nice talking with you hope you see one day what i am saying is all tru i will b praying for you

X) So you acknowledge that belief is not simply a choice.

it is a choise and i am making the right one beliveing in god

If belief is a choice, then believe in unicorns.

ok i got it
proof i am glad i remembered this

Some proof? Excellent!

ok so true story there is this teacher who teachs of course well he was just like you
at one point in this class they had so many christians but then it died down
this teacher would ask everytime he had a class if anyone here belives in god to rasie there hand nobody didnt
did then he said if i drop this chalk and it doesnt brake god is real if it does he isnt
everytime it would brake
until one day he asked if anyone if this room belived in god to raise there hand one did
he said to the person if gods real the chalk wont brake if i drop it if he isnt it will brake
when he drop it slipt out of his hand rolled down his pants and did not brake the teacher left the room and stoped teaching

Okay. So, when are you getting to the proof?

you didnt just hear what i said
it didnt brake someone was a christian and god showed the teacher he is real

So your “proof” of the Christian god’s existence is an obviously untrue story from a chain email about a guy who dropped some chalk and it didn’t break.

another thing of profe
proof
how about another true proof better then that one

these happend on a hill
his guy was a christian worshiped god
one day theses people that belived in a idol said to this guy
if your gods real proof it just like you and so they went to a mountain
each built a fire pit and made it so it was ready to be put on fire
they guy said proof that your gods real if we worshipe are god the idol and this pit gets lit on fire then the idol is real
they tried time after time after time nothing happend
then this one guy that belived in god started to worshipe and then fire came down from the sky and lit his pit on fire
and the people who belived in the idol all started to worship god
not a stoy true fact just like the other one

Can you prove that it actually occurred?

yes it is write down in scrolls

And you think that it’s written on a scroll proves that it’s true?

its also writen in the bible
i am done here tired have a goodngith

good night

So your proof that it’s true is that it’s written down.

as i said i am down here i have tried for a hour

You haven’t tried very hard. All you’ve given me are unproven stories. If I said “God isn’t real because once someone dropped some chalk and it didn’t break,” would that convince you that your god was not real?

you didnt say the story right
good night


A disciple of Mel Gibson’s god

EVERYONE NEEDS JESUS!

Nobody needs Jesus.

YOU SPEAK LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

XD Are you serious?

NOBODY NEEDS JESUS IF YOU WANT TO GO TO HELL AND BURN FOREVER
JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD AND GO IT THE ONE TRUE GOD

Got any proof of that?

LOOK IN THE BIBLE!

I have.

READ JOHN 1:1

I know that verse by heart. So, can you provide me with any evidence of the existence of your god?

IN ALL OF THE BIBLE JESUS IS REFLECTED AS GOD’S SON! ALL THE WAY FROM GENESIS 1:1 TO REVELATION.

I know that the Bible says it. In what way do you believe that’s proof that it’s true?

EXPLAIN THE PARTING OF THE RED SEA AND THE 10 PLEAGES?

“Explain” them? They’re stories in a book.

REALLY. WOULD YOU WANT A GOD THAT YOU CAN EXPLIAN EVERYTHING ABOUT? IF YOU COULD EXPLIAN HIM HE WOULD NOT BE GOD

If a god did exist, I’d prefer that he make sense, yeah.

THEN HE WOULDN’T BE GOD

That’s nice. So, can you provide me with any evidence of your god’s existence?

I DON’T UNDERSTAND IT ALL BUT THE BIBLE IS ALL THE EVIDENCE I NEED. YOU ARE A SINNER, EVERYONE IF A SINNER AND DESERVES HELL.

So the fact that it’s written in a book convinces you that it’s true?

YES
I DON’T WANT A GOD THAT i CAN EXPLIAN
REMEMBER: GOD, MAN, JESUS, RESPOND, GOD IS HOLY AND TRUE, MAN IS THE WORST SINNER EVER, JESUS CAME TO SAVE US, AND SHOULD RESPOND BY REPENTANCE

I know that’s what you believe, but there’s no proof that it’s true.

HAVE TO GO NOW AND YOU CAN CONTINUE BEING A SINNER AND GOD CAN CAST YOU INTO BURNING FIRE IN HELL.
HAVE FUN!

So you worship a muderer and a torturer?

HE IS ALSO MERCIFUL AND GRACEFUL AS SAID IN GENESIS CHAPTERS 1-5

Of course he’s not merciful and graceful; he tortures billions and murders hundreds of thousands (at least).

WHEN ADAM ATE FROM THE TREE OF LIFE LIKE GOD SAID NOT TO DO AND HE DID NOT KILL THEM. HE LET THEM LIVE FOR 1000 YEARS MORE
HE ALSO SAVES POEPLE EVERY DAY

So what? That doesn’t make all the other atrocities he’s committed okay somehow.

EVERYONE DESERVES HELL AND HE SAVES MILLIONS (AT LEAST)

Nobody deserves Hell. Hell is an infinite punishment, which could only be appropriate for an infinitely severe crime.

EVERONE DID AND DOES COMMIT A CRIME. SINNING AGAINST GOD

Yes, everyone commits misdeeds, but no one commits infinitely severe misdeeds. Why should your god be the one to judge, anyway? He’s committed more crimes than most human beings.

HOW IS THAT

As I’ve pointed out, he’s committed numerous murders and acts of torture.

YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT HE DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THAT.

Of course he doesn’t. No one has the right to deprive people of their rights.

WE ARE ALL SINNERS AND DESERVE HELL

No one deserves Hell. An infinite punishment could only be appropriate for an infinite crime.

PEOPLE HAVE NO RIGHTS.

XD Wow. Yours is clearly a quite an enlightened faith.

IF IT WASN’T FOR GOD THERE WOULD BE NO PEOPLE
I FAIL TO SEE WHAT YOU MEAN

I’m being sarcastic– your religion is obviously oppressive.

NOT TO MEN, GOD SHOULD HAVE AND DOES HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THESE THINGS. WHY SHOULDN’T HE?

Because they infringe on peoples’ rights.

SIMPLIAR TERMS

Your god doesn’t have the right to murder people at random for the same reason a person doesn’t have the right to murder people at random.

GOD HAS THE RIGHT TO EVERYTHING. HE IS GOD ISN’T HE

What grants your god the right to murder and torture?

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU? HE IS GOD!

And how does his being a god make it not wrong when he murders people?

HE IS GOD. NO ONE IS PERFECT. ONLY GOD.

If he’s perfect, why does he murder so many people?

HE DOESN’T MURDER POEPLE! HE GIVES US WHAT WE DESERVE

So, in your opinion, it would be okay for me to go around murdering and torturing, because that’s what people deserve.

NO BECAUSE YOU DESERVE THE SAME PUNISHMENT

I take it that, in your opinion, any sin deserves eternal torture as a punishment.

YES, AS SIAD IN THE BIBLE OVER AND OVER AGAIN

So if someone steals a nickel, they deserve to be tortured for eternity for that.

OF COURSE
SILLY OR NOT THEY STILL DESERVE HELL

Wow. You’re really gone.
Say, what if the person whom the nickel was stolen from forgives the thief? What if the victim says, “No, please don’t torture the person who victimized me!  I’ve forgiven him, and torturing him wouldn’t do anyone any good”?

GOD FORGIVES EVERYONE OF HIS POEPLE WHEN THEY REPENT. BUT IF NOT SAFED THEN THEY GET HELL. THOSE THAT ARE SAVED ARE IN HIS FORGIVNESS

So your god would torture someone for having committed a misdeed, even if the victim of that misdeed had forgiven the perpetrator and did not want them to be tortured.

(Five minutes pass.)

HOLD ON A MINUTE

(Six minutes pass.)

ULTIMATLY YES

Your god seems very enthusiastic about torture.

ONLY BECAUSE WE DESERVE IT

Well, if your god created us and is omnipotent, then he deliberately created us that way.

YES AND THAT IS A REASON THAT I CANNOT UNDERSTAND.

So you admit that it doesn’t make sense.

I HAVE TO GO NOW


My eyes, they bleed

Do you believe in God?

Nope.

What evidence do you have?

There’s no evidence that a god does exist, and if one did it would contravene pretty much everything we’ve so far observed about the Universe.

Such as? you do realize that God is irrefutably the author of all we know right?
And I do not say that simply to argue but rather to raise conversation : )

XD Irrefutably? Well, I’d like to see your justification for saying that.

Do you believe that there are such things as absolutes?

Depends what you mean by that.

Well, that there are undeniable, unbending limits to things to be more precise : )

Only practically; there’s always a theoretical possibility– however negligible– that a previously-established limitation will be contravened somehow.

That however doesn’t address if they exist or not, simply that we misunderstood, or mis-guaged what said absolute would be no? : )

Anyone who believes in the absolute incontrovertability– as opposed to the virtual absolute incontrovertability– of anything is being irrational to start with.

But then how an anything exist if there is not absolution? If there is no absolution, there is no certainty, no reality, and no existance

Why would justified absolute certainty on the part of someone of something be necessary for anything to exist?

As then nothing can actually exist if there is no absolution, because then nothing can absolutely exist, there is no definition then for anything anymore,as the is no way of determining anything due to lack of any way to determine anything

There’s no way to determine anything with justified absolute certainty, but there are ways of determining things with justified practically absolute certainty. I don’t see why one needs to be absolutely certain of anything in order for anything to exist or happen, as you seem to be claiming. One’s certainty should reflect the strength of the evidence.

Again, how can there be certainty if there is no such thing? Certainty requires basis, and I am refering though to actuality

There are different degrees of certainty. Just because infinite certainty can’t be rationally obtained doesn’t mean anything.

I am disregarding opinion entirely and reffering to a more puristic level. Asking if it must exist or not. If there is no absolution though, nothing can exist though, how do you have something partially exist and partially not?

Having finite certainty that something exists doesn’t mean that it “partially exists”; it just means that one is partially certain that it exists.

Aye, again, I am aiming at the question of whether absolution must exist even for any certainty to be present. Can we obtain any level of certainty without something to consider?

Quick question: what do you think “absolution” means?

Undeniable, complete, viewed as evidential or defining as the state of actuality
atleast in this context
or otherwise unconditional

Mhm. So, what overall point are you attempting to make?

That there must be absolutes for anything to exist, or to be capable of any form of knowledge firstly : )
As without absolution, there are no such things as limits and therefor no meter with which to measure or determine anything
Ultimately to be frank, I wish to know if you are concerned with sharing opinion, or seeking truth or actuality : )

You should have just asked.

Fair enough, I apologiz

I’m concerned with both sharing opinions and seeking truth.

i see, and I appreciate it. I wouldn’t waste any more time were you interested only in opinions alone

Now, why is it that you seem to think that we have no way of judging anything if we have no way to rationally attain absolute certainty of something?

i am not saying we have no way of judging things if we are incapable of attaining absolute certainty

Then what are you saying?

I’m saying we are incapable of judging things if no absolutes actually exist

Why?

Whether we can ascertain certainty or not is irrelevant of certainty does not exist : )
That said, certainty must actually exist for us to even be capable of ascertaining it, correct?

What are you using “certainty” to mean?

by certainty, i mean surety because of definitive proof

So you’re talking about something that would exist only as a concept.

No, I am reffering to the fact that there must be absolution for anything to exist because of practicality
As in there must be set, pre-determined limits and boundaries to everything, whether we have discovered them or not
Actually regarding everything to a certain degree

So you’re saying that incontrovertible limitations must apply to everything or else nothing would exist?

Correct, as existance requires that something actually be, or not be. And that for there to be such a concept as that, there must be absolution to define whether something is, or is not. Otherwise there is only a grey of nothingness

So basically what you’re saying is that in order for something to exist, it has to exist.

That is correct

I agree.

ok : ), and assuming both of those two things are, then truth must also exist, otherwise you still cannot define anything as truth would be what defines what the absolutes state, would you agree? Or perhaps more accurately stated, truth is what gives meaning and identity to existance and absolution

“Truth,” as I’ve most commonly heard it used, is a quality that a statement has if that statement accurately reflects reality.

Correct, and yes, I am reffering to Truth being the actual state of whatever is being reffered to : )

So you’re saying that if things exist, that it must be possible for accurate statements to be made about those things.

Correct

What overall point are you attempting to make?

That for our universe to exist, God must exist is the ultimate point I’m looking to attempt to prove : )

Okey-dokey. Please feel free to skip forward to the bit where you establish god’s existence.

well, for it to be proven, I have to establish the reasoning why, if you’ll allow?
and I’m sorry, I should also step back somewhat and add that said God must be singular and unique

Please continue, then.

Kk : ) and thanks!
Now for existance to be, it must be eternal because existance cannot fail to exist and be the definition of existance can it?
as something that doesn’t exist cannot possibly do anything if it doesn’t exist right?

So you’re asserting that something must always exist, if something ever exists?

Correct
and it is somewhat circular, but nothing can exist out of non-existance, as existance cannot exist unless it already exists

So you’re asserting that it’s possible for something to exist without cause.

I am attempting rather to assert that existance is self-causation, as it is both an idea and an actual, intangible thing
And that for existance to be, something must exist eternally for existance to ever be a reality

So you are asserting that it’s possible for something to exist without cause.

No, I am asserting that a singular something *must* exist for anything to ever exist (that being the cause) Because lack of existance disallows for anything to exist, as we agreed upon previously correct?

I just didn’t feel like getting further bogged down by challenging it. For the sake of discussion, I agree with you on that.

Ok, although, if existance doesn’t exist, how can time ever come to be either? that is why existance must always exist. For it to exist, it must be outside of time, as time cannot be reality without existance being present already

So, you’re asserting that, for anything to exist, a singular, causeless “something” must have eternally existed in order to cause everything else.

That is correct, and that something must exist absolutely, eternally, and in actuality, otherwise none of those can be real

What leads you to that conclusion? If it’s possible for things to exist eternally without cause, why not say that the Universe itself has existed eternally and without cause?

Because only 1 thing can embody all those things, else they are that thing, which still leaves only 1 thing : )
However, for something to be absolute, and be true, it must be the embodiment of all that has existance

Why postulate an eternal, Universe-causing “thing,” if the Universe itself does not require a cause?

Because the universe cannot provide the embodiment of perfection in all things that exist, as that single entity must be the identity

And what do you base that statement on?

Existance and absolution require that their ultimate being must be a single entity that provides the standard of all things

What do you say that on the basis of?

For anything to be absolute, there must be a singular thing that is both a person, an entity, and thought. Among other things, as those things cannot exist without something defining them as existant, all other things may be similar, but all those things must exist if they are to exist. Therefor, if there is absolution, existance, and truth for anything to be, all subsistent things must be exemplified in their perfection. Otherwise, there is no absolution, and therefor nothing else

Is there any chance you could try to reiterate that in a less convoluted manner?

I apologize, let me try restating then
For there to be absolution, there must be perfection. As absolution in cooperation with truth and existance, define all things ultimately. Perfection would be the definition of the absolute positive of every existant thing, where all else is the absolute negative (not that 1 positive thing that by it’s existance provides the absolute (or perfect) example of each and all things)
make a little bit more sense?

What are you using the phrase “the absolute positive” to mean?

In this case, I am just using mathematical terminology to try and express more simply, absolute positive meaning the absolute reality

So when you say “the absolute positive” you mean reality.

Correct
For all things to be real, they must exist, and for each thing to exist, it must either be the embodiment of reality and existance, or they either derive existance from reality, or do not actually exist

Would you say that “That which exists” is a fair definition of “reality”?

I would say that ultimately one can trace everything to that point yes, but that it is a very general statement :O)
Because of being a general statement, it is not necessarily accurate however, as it cannot be said true in all circumstances

Now, what special attributes were you saying something must possess in order to exist causelessly and eternally?

That existance must be eternal, but for existance to be eternal, absolution must also be eternal along with truth
As the three are co-dependant upon one another
To pointedly answer the question, only those 3 things are/can be causeless and eternal

And what about the causeless, eternal, Universe-causing “something” you mentioned earlier?

That something must be those 3 things, but each of them must also be a single entity because of what absolution actually is
As absolution is the definition of all things that exist (or the limit thereof) and therefor must be either the definition or limit of
What all things are, or can be, but there can be only 1 limit, and therefor only 1 absolute, 1 existance, 1 truth
a near unlimited not-truths, or non-absolutes, and non-existances then

(Four minutes pass.)

Was that the end of that thought, or are you still going?

Sorry, that was the end of that thought, yes

If you’re still defining “truth” as a quality some statements possess, what do you mean by saying that there’s “only one truth”?

For reality to be existant, it must be absolute, for it to be absolute, it can possess only 1 actuality, elsewise it is no longer the limitation or definition thereof

So what you’re asserting is that if something exists in a certain way, it cannot simultaneously exist in another, contradictory way.

Correct, elsewise it is then another thing

Okay. Well, you may as well move on to the next segment of your argument.

Do you disagree?
I would rather discuss than simply present an arguement, otherwise it’s a monologue : )
besides, a 1-sided arguement is generally rather tasteless or frankly lame : P

You use so many words idiosyncratically and express yourself in such a convoluted, unstructured way that it is, frankly, pretty hard to tell whether or not I agree with most of what you’re saying.

How do you mean, or for example if you don’t mind?
If I’m doing a poor job expressing myself, I’de rather rectify it than simply continue and waste both our time

Well, take the way you use words like “absolution,” “perfection,” etc. You’re not using them in standard ways; I can’t be sure, when you say something, what you’re actually trying to express, because for all I know you may be using half the words in a similarly non-standard way.

Well, if it helps, I try to use them as grammatically and as close to their actual meanings as possible unless I otherwise state

I’ll assume that you’re using them in a strictly standard sense from here on out, then.

Kk, and if you’re uncertain, just stop me and ask, or reffer to a dictionary and offer me correction if need be? : )
To make absolutely certain we are both on the same page

Well– I think you’re mixing up “absolution” with “absoluteness,” or something similar. “Absolution” is the forgivness of guilt.

Yeah, you’re correct, I am reffering to absolute and probably using an improper form

Can you briefly reiterate the point you made in the last segment of the conversation?

certainly, let me go re-read what I said and try again
Ok, I believe I was talking about what attributes the aforementioned causeless, eternal being must have?
Or for the sake of this stage of the conversation, the entity

And what was your reasoning as to why causelessness was possible, and yet the Universe itself could not be causeless?

Because only 1 thing can be causeless, which is existance, but because absoluteness and truth are co-dependant with existance, they must

On what grounds do you assert that only one thing can be causeless?

also be causeless and eternal, which means to meet both those requirements, they must be one and the same
Because for absoluteness to be absolute, there can be only a single thing that is absolute and nearly unlimited things that are not
But that single absolute encompasses every individual aspect of absoluteness in all aspects of all things for it to be truly absolute

What do you mean by “for absoluteness to be absolute”?

Well, absolute by definition is without limit, and complete (which means it is either beyond, or the definition of everything to which it pertians, which to be ultimately complete or beyond limit, it must be regarding all things)

Did we establish earlier that, according to you, anything that actually exists possesses “absoluteness”?

It was actually that it is defined by absoluteness

Absoluteness is a quality that could be ascribed to things that exist, then.

Well, Absoluteness would be a quality that they possess if they exist yes, but that is a derivative quality because of the co-existant and co-operative natures of truth, absoluteness, and existance. Those 3 things must all be evident qualities for all real things, but that does not mean they are the embodiment of them, only that they are defined by them

And how exactly would the existence of an objectively existent reality mean that there could be one and only one causeless thing?

Because there can be only a single definition of what each and every thing is to be different things. Because that must be the case, all things may derive from those definitions, but everything that is existant, must derive their existance From a singular reality, because there can only be 1 of any given thing, including reality.

So the essence of what you’ve just said is that something cannot simultaneously possess contradictory qualities.

That is correct, as that would make them different things yes : )

And how does that there must be one and only one causeless thing?

Because there can be only one of all things, that includes causelessness

What do you mean by “there can be only one of all things”?

Every thing that is ultimately must derive from existance, truth, and absoluteness. However, there can be only 1 truth, 1 absoluteness, and 1 existance (either it exists, or does not exist) however, only existance can be causeless as well for the same reasons

Saying “Something can’t be other than what it is” isn’t the same as saying “There can only be one of something.”

At the basal level we are talking about it can, as existance can only be existant, and therefor cannot have a beginning nor end. however, existance cannot exist without absoluteness and truth, and there is only a single truth and single absoluteness ultimately. That being the case, truth and absoluteness derive their being from existance, while existance derives it’s being also from truth etc

What, so you’re saying that truth is caused by existence and existence is caused by truth?

Correct, truth, existance, and absoluteness are all dependent upon one another, but because existence must be causeless for it to exist. Both truth and absoluteness must also be causeless, and because there can be only a single reality (what is) there is only 1 truth, and

We’re still using “truth” to describe statements that correspond accurately to reality, correct?

yes

In what sense are you claiming that it’s causeless, then?

Because existance is the reason for truth, but truth defines existance and absoluteness defines both

How are you using “defines” here?

To determine or fix the boundaries there of, to explain or identify the nature or essence of

“Truth” doesn’t determine the nature of existence; it merely reflects it.

Indeed, but it does determine or fix the boundaries thereof by being the determinant of actuality or not

Can you rephrase that?

Again, the three must be coexistant and cooperative, something cannot exist if it cannot be determined whether it exists or not

So now you’re asserting that something can’t exist if its existence cannot be determined?

absoluteness adresses that issue, however, absoluteness is irrelevant without existance as well

Are you asserting that something can’t exist if its existence cannot be determined?

yes, as without there being such a thing as completeness, nothing can exist, as existance cannot actually completely exist without it, and neither still can be present without the existance of truth defining and determining both

How are you defining “completeness”?

Total, whole, entire, perfect etc

And what does that have to do with whether or not the existence of something is determinable?

Something cannot exist if it doesn’t wholly, or entirely exist. But nothing can entirely exist unless there is a such thing as totality
Or the actuality that yes, something can definitely exist, there are 3 parts to being able to make that statement : )

So what you’re saying is that something does not totally exist if it does not totally exist, and without total existence being possible, nothing can totally exist.

There must be actuality, definity, and truth for existance, absoluteness, or truth to be possible

Doesn’t that statement seem tautological to you?

somewhat, yeah. Perhaps it would be better explained this way:
For any of those to be possible, you must have actuality, boundaries, and certainty

Could you reiterate that statement, using explanatory phrases in place of words like “actuality,” “definity,” etc.?

And I apologize, beings the ideas are well outside normal conversation, I will admit that I am having some trouble thinking of good terms to effectively explain the thoughts. And yeah , let me think a moment : )

No, it’s fine. Even though half of what you say is virtually incomprehensible, you are a good sport about it.

Well existance requires that something can actually exist of course, but for everything there must be opposites as well

What do you mean by “for everything there must be opposites”?

For there to be non-existance, there must be a division between that which exists, and that which does not

Well, there *isn’t* non-existence, except as a concept.

Correct, but there must be something to define between what does or does not exist, or there can be no existance necessarily

There’s a conceptual distinction between the existent and the nonexistent, sure.

Or I guess more simply put, there must be a way of defining existence for it to actually exist, specifically absoluteness
and I realize that the two would in that thought, be almost identical

What you’re saying is that existence must exist in a certain way in order for it to exist.

Well, existance must exist, so yes, it must exist in completeness

By “in completeness,” do you meant that it must exist in exactly the way it exists and in no other way?

Simply because existance cannot only partially exist, either it does, or it does not (although the later is a non-sensical suggestion)
Correct, for existence to exist, it must exist only in 1 way, as it is effectively a yes/no, or positive/negative situation

Okay. I agree with that. Though I would like to point out that in whatever way existence exists, that way would effectively become its “complete” or “whole” way of existing.

yeah, that’s effectively what I meant

So, what does this all imply, according to you?

Existance is defined by truth and absoluteness based upon existance being only a singular thing that all other things derive from
Truth and absoluteness are descriptive, determinants for attributes of existance I guess might be a better way of saying it?

I am going to go now. I feel a bit fatigued.

Sure thing, and don’t blame you. Do have a good night : )

Likewise!