Conversations with the enlightened.

Archive for September, 2010

Off-topic but not irrelevant

Im sorry something happened to you that strained your faith in God…but what benefit do you get by trying to convince others to leave Him?

X) Er… nothing “happened” to strain my faith in god. I’ve never had faith in a god.  And, for the most part, I don’t actually try to deconvert people from Christianity.  I just explain why I reject the assertions of Christianity.

is that how you deal with serious confrontation… pretending you dont see?

Who’s having a serious confrontation?

I asked you a serious question and you havent answered…if you can insult my father then you should be able to explain why
Im not even trying to convince you to stop im looking for a intelligent response to your actions
you’re challanging God…for your own amusement

No; I’m not challenging your god. That wouldn’t make much sense, given his nonexistence, would it?

p.s…..he’s you’re God too…….whether you acknowledge him or not……


and despite what you say he still loves you man….

Of course, an assertion without proof is worthless.

and if you dont belive for now…..its ok……it really is….but its a terrible way to live… not saying “go to church!…pay tithes!

Not at all; it’s just as possible to achieve fulfillment without a belief in the supernatural as it is with that belief.

im saying its rude and imature to slam the lord b/c you personally cant belive or trust in him

No, I slam your belief in “the Lord” because it’s irrational.

that is only your opinion…..for every reason people say they cant belive there is more proof that he does exist rather him being fake

Okey-dokey; show me some proof that the Christian god exists.

whatever the case may be you should be more respectful or no one will value your opinion

Paying respect to irrationalities in order to gain the esteem of others is no virtue.

This country was founded on christian values….
whats “irrational” about that?

What’s irrational about espousing a belief that has no justifying evidence, you mean?

what type of “evidence” are you asking for…..are you sure you’re not the one being irrational?
maybe you should dive into specifics so I can better answer your questions…

Requesting evidence in support of a claim isn’t irrational.

or at least try too…im not a scholar…

I’m not after any specific kind of evidence. The claimant can choose any kind he or she likes, so far as I’m concerned.

well what specifically do you feel is irrational….
and if thats how you feel why the online hostility in this chat?

Accepting an assertion that is not justified by evidence (in this case, the assertion that the Christian god is real) is what I’m saying is irrational.

well you cant offer proof that he doesnt exist…….so what kind of logic is that

The burden of proof is on the claimant.

i could sit here and type…”prove he doesnt exist” all day

Meaning that the default position toward any assertion should be a lack of belief.  It’s up to the person making the claim to prove it; it’s not up to the person to whom the claim is being made to disprove it.  For instance, if I said that unicorns exist, it wouldn’t be up to you to prove beyond a doubt that they do not.  It would be up to me to prove that they do.

and your claiming he is a superstition….but….you couldnt prove it if i asked
im saying God exist…

I could certainly justify my position that your god is probably nonexistent, sure.

most people just dont want to be held responsible for the things they do in they’re personal life…

Oh, don’t be ridiculous. If I don’t believe your claims, it’s because you’ve not justified them.  I’m perfectly willing to own any the choices I make in my personal life.

probably is not a convincing word….
according to your logic its up to you to prove that he doesnt…
you know…like unicorns..

Sure, probably is a convincing word. After all, absolute positivity of anything is unjustifiable.

??? are you sure you ment to word that sentence that way….

Anyway, as to the justification of my position, I base it on the fact that theists can provide no evidence and the fact that the gods commonly described are, by their natures, completely inconsistent with what we know about how the Universe operates.

what you said about “probably” makes no sense at all……and lets try to keep PRIDE out of this

X) I’ll reword it for you, shall I?
“Probably” is a perfectly functional word, and was perfectly sufficient for my usage.  Being absolutely positive of the veracity of any claim is irrational.

being sure is not being irrational….

Being incontrovertibly sure is irrational.

Verification often involves a process

Yes, but it’s impossible to verify anything incontrovertibly.  Aside perhaps from things in mathematics.

what are you trying to say

What I’m saying is, being absolutely positive of the veracity of any claim is irrational.  In response to your complaining about my usage of “probably.”

so how much effort have you put into finding the lord for yourself?

Finding the lord? 😄 Do you go looking for unicorns?

ps. you’re personalizing the conversation now……
if a unicorn loved me and saved my soul….died for me….yeah…id go looking for one

Yes, but there’s no particular reason for me to think that your god exists or that he did any of that.

b/c God has done so much……..the very least we can do as humans is try

The things you’re saying assume that the thinker already believes that your god exists.  They mean nothing to someone who has not already been convinced.

sad to say many people share that view untill tradegy strikes….and without God all you have to turn to is Anger and pain

Of course not. There are many ways to find comfort and meaning in the face of tragedy that don’t involve supernatural spirits.

its not about comfort…its about resolution….

The same thing goes for resolution.

its about the meaning behind this life and your purpose here

And the same thing goes for finding meaning in one’s life.  I mean, do you seriously think that only adherents of your specific religious tradition can experience meaning in their lives?

were not here just to work, type, and text our lives away…God has a purpose for everyone
I belive that those who love God and belive in a higher power will attain everlasting life after death

But, as I’ve already pointed out, an assertion without evidence to justify it is meaningless.  If you’re not provided to prove evidence for these claims, you might as well just skip them.

do you want to continue this debate….?…I really feel its pointless unless you are willing to give loving god a honest attempt

I’m willing to give any evidence you present to me an honest assessment.

despite my behavior i still feel that I have a soul
I belive that there is more to humanity that blood, flesh, and organs
this however is personal insight…..natural feelings powered by my own fears, instinct

Of course human beings aren’t simple mechanical constructs.

hold on..

But there’s no evidence that there’s anything supernatural about what you might call the “soul.”

the point is everyon has that inside of them…..and from birth no one is born feeling the way you feel …or thinking the way that you do

Well, babies generally wouldn’t think or feel the way adults would, no.

so my challenge to you is to evaluate honestly where and when you developed your opinions about the lord

About the Christian god specifically, you mean?

the development begins at birth…..
its not completly formed at childhood….its just inocent then..

Are you asking me to describe how my attitude toward theism has formed, then?

not describe how….acknowledge how and when…and then see if it was driven by logic or something elses
Most athiest either just had a bad life expeirence and need something to blame…or an outlet

😄 Oh really?

whatever the case may be… logic offers minimal persuasion….b/c books like many other things in life are produced for profit

Ah. “Book logic.” So if you don’t like an argument, but can’t think of any way to refute it, you can write it off as “book logic,” hm?  That must be handy.

where as they use to be produced for information and teachings….now its big business…

Anyway, as for my own atheism, I’ve been atheistic or agnostic for as long as I can remember, so I can’t really address how it initially formed.

I doubt that

X) Well, I suppose I should just ask you rather than consulting my own memory.

no you should give it an honest attempt
otherwise your just wasting time

That is, honestly, an assessment of my attitude towards theism.  Of course, you call it dishonest because it doesn’t bolster your assertions.

*sigh*…thats not true at all….lets be a little more mature about this….all im asking you to do is acknowledge when you first said…
there is no God…
im sure you can remember when you stoped beliving in Santa so spare me the memory lapses

Actually, I don’t recall ever believing in Santa, either. I probably did when I was very small, but I don’t recall specifically.  My parents never really pushed Santa or Christianity onto me.
Anyway, I don’t recall the first time I actually said out loud, “There is no god.” I doubt it would have been a milestone for me.  I never realized that lacking belief in a god was such a huge deal until I ran into religious fundamentalism, which was after I’d identified as an atheist for some years.

and these are you beliefs so you’ll need more than circular reasoning and empty words to back them up

Well, yeah, sure. I’m drawing my claims from my memories; that’s sufficient evidence for me, at least to justify anything not out-of-the-ordinary.

christianity is ordinary in this country…along with atheism sadly…and it will be that way long after were dead and gone…the only
difference will be what happens to our souls…

So, are you just abandoning the conversation thread about the history of my attitude toward theism, or what?

we may continue to discuss if it you wish

I just want to know what the point of it was meant to be, if you are abandoning it.

I just find it hard to belive that you cant tell how your atheism formed

Well, there was never any reason to believe in any gods. It’s really not so mysterious.

the point is you dont know how good cheeseburgers are untill you eat one…
i lived half my childhood saying i didnt like cheeseburgers…..
then i ate one and found out i loved them….

X) So, what are you saying? That I won’t know how good abandoning logic feels until I try it?
Say, you’ve never gouged your eyes out!  Why don’t you try it?  There’s no way to know what it could be like if you haven’t tried it!

If youve never read the bible…or invited God into your life then how could you possibley understand anything i have to say

Sure, I’ve read the Bible. And I’m capable of understanding what you say because I’m familiar with your claims.  You don’t have to accept a claim to be aware of it and to understand it.

or take an intelligent position against christianity

All I need to take a justifiable position against Christianity is to point out that it’s based on unjustified claims.

how old are you… 26


you’ve read the bible… what point in your life?
to read and interpret correctly you must have been at least 12-13 minimum

Well, I was about fourteen when I read it in its entirety.  I was going to a Christian school at the time.

so within a 10 yr period it should be relativley simple to decipher when you abandoned Christianity

I never “abandoned” Christianity. I was never a Christian.

everyone has the option to love God….denoucing the faith is the same…

“Abandoning” implies that one was once somehow associated with what one has allegedly abandoned.

thats your interpritation of the useage of the word….
you could break out the dictionary if you’d like….but that would only be to fluff your ego
the point still evades you

Sure, the point evades me, but only because you apparently misuse rather simple words.


I don’t ever recall being a theist. So I never really “turned” to atheism, that I can recollect.  It’d make more sense to ask me why I never became a theist.

People who dont belive dont read the bible……if you were reading there was a motive behind it

Don’t flatter your faith. I’ve read many holy books.

you have the questions im asking….and my faith is in God…more than any book

That’s nice. Anyway, as to why I never became a theist, I never had a reason.

and that goes for the bible too…some translations are garbage
listen….if you dont belive in god or any higher power for that matter your an athiest
feel free to get that dictionary anytime….

Yes, if you don’t believe in a god you’re an atheist. I think you may have misread something I’ve typed.

“That’s nice. Anyway, as to why I never became a theist, I never had a reason.”

Yes. I never became a theist because I never had a reason to become a theist. So… what?

…..seems to me that your avoiding talking about your atheism

The state of not being a theist is atheism. I was explaining why I am not a theist.  i.e., I was explaining why I am an atheist, at least in effect.

there are many people who probably have offered you the same argument FOR christianity time after time…
im more interested as to why you feel the way you do

What feeling is that?

Like i said im willing to bet that something very sad or bad happedned to you and you asked God for something you didnt get
or you asked God to do something or to prove something….
and most dont realize it should be the other way around…
or it could be the lack of being able to own up to personal actions or sins

Mhm. Or it could be the fact that theism is a claim without justification.

the fear of accountablility….perhaps?
whatever the case you still are evading a straight answer as to why you belive there is no God

I’ve told you about ten times: I don’t believe in a god because there’s no reason to believe there is a god.  As for my supposed fear of moral accountability, go fuck yourself. I put great effort into making moral choices. More than most Christians, to my observation.

and thats a 5th grade response…
with all the hype you put up about logic i expected a more profound response

It’s a perfectly rational response. You make an unjustified claim. With no justification to accept it, I must reject it.

and you back that up with a go “fukk yourself”

Yeah, sure. I’m insulted you would imply that I somehow reject the idea of moral accountability, all the while preening yourself as a follower of some ultra-elevated system of morality when, in reality, you’re nothing of the sort.

“no reason.” thats like asking a child “why” and they say “because”…..its not an answer

X) So rejecting a claim because that claim is not justified is “not an answer”?

yes it does…theres nothing moral sound by disrespecting someone intentionally
espesially when you know going into this that its a sensitive subject to many

There’s plenty moral about disrespecting irrational claims.  Whether people are sensitive to it or not is immaterial.  Who do I harm by pointing out that a lie is a lie?

do you attend a post-secondary school?

I have, but I’m finished with it for the time being.

Listen this isnt a shot at your intelligence…but surley if you attend college you understand what a thourough answer is!
lets get away from the roundabout bullish and get serious
give str8 answers

😄 In what way is “I reject your assertion because you can’t justify it” roundabout?

this is becoming very time consuming….

Yes, because you apparently fail to grasp basic logic.

and your in denial……of SELFAWARNESS

If you………..SAY SO.

based on how this conversation has gone I’d bet you have a problem with constructive critisism as well

Not really; I do what I can to invite constructive criticism.  What sensitivity I do have to reasonable criticism I do my best to ignore.

you respond to questions with more question and off topic statements

Give me a single instance in which I’ve responded to a question with an irrelevant statement.

you’re also very defensive and evade the overall topic of my questions towards you..

I give you straightforward, honest, and lucid answers. You reject them, presumably because they don’t bolster your point of view.

not irrelevant….OFF TOPIC
and almost everytime

Er… what do you think “irrelevant” means? 😄

i have yet to REJECT anything you have said

Sure you have. You claimed that my rejection of your assertion because it was unjustified was “not a real answer.”

at this point i feel your’e just backed into a corner not being able to reasonably explain your feelings

Which “feelings” are those?

you’re attempting to hide behind sentences that appear logical but arent sound
towards christianity..and God

Give me a single example of a logical fallacy I’ve committed.

Scroll up and read….pick any of them

Can you give me an example?

our entire conversation….

So you’re claiming that every single statement I’ve made in this conversation contains a fallacy?

even now you neglet to say how you feel towards God and why

I don’t feel anything toward the Christian god. I might as well ask you how you feel toward Darth Vader.

no you might as well explain why

Explain why I have no feelings directed toward the Christian god, you mean?


I have no feelings toward the Christian god because he doesn’t exist.

answer like a 23 yr. old college student ……
why doesnt he exist

There’s no reason to accept the assertion that he exists because that assertion is not justified.

how so

There is an absence of evidence that would justify the acceptance of that assertion.


What, you want me to start listing off evidence that doesn’t exist?

you should explain what you mean

What part don’t you understand?  “I reject your claim because it has no justifying evidence” isn’t an especially opaque statement.

you’ve yet to actually say anything…..

Except that I reject your assertion because it has no justifying evidence.  Are you certain you understand what I mean when I say that?

you shouldnt be rejecting anything…im asking you a question…
just answer the questions…..

I have been answering your questions with about as much patience and clarity as any human being could be expected to possess.

when you write a paper (apaformat) you site references for credibilty
im asking the same of you now
not obligatory comments

You want me to provide a source for your inability to provide substantiating evidence that your god exists?

“why doesnt he exist”
“There’s no reason to accept the assertion that he exists because that a”
scroll up and start there…..
i type simple straight forward ….1-2 word question….read how you respond
you dont answer….just get sidetracked

I did answer. See:
“There’s no reason to accept the assertion that he exists because that assertion is not justified.”
^^ That bit there is the answer.

you dont back that up with anything
just saying that isnt an answer…no matter how pretty you think it may look
i’d appreciate a more thorough response

What are you asking me to back up? Your inability to provide evidence?  Or the fact that accepting unjustified assertions is irrational?

no yours that he doesnt exist
you say he doesnt exist…but its a different thing all together proving it

My justification for my position that a god almost certainly doesn’t exist, which I provided earlier, is as follows:
“I base it on the fact that theists can provide no evidence and the fact that the gods commonly described are, by their natures, completely inconsistent with what we know about how the Universe operates.”

christians have been defending themselves against people like you for hundreds of years… asking you to prove your claim
REALISTICLY…you know NOTHING about how the universe works….you accept what you learned in text books as truth
you dont have any first had accounts with the workings of the universe
so just save that

X) Yeah? I’m incapable of observing the Universe directly am I?  I’m completely unable to make any observation of the physical world?

so back up your position that god does not exist….what proof do you offer?

The fact that there’s no evidence that a god exists and that the god you claim to exist operates in ways that contravene everything we’ve observed about the Universe is sufficient to justify the position that that god probably does not exist.

lol….no its not…

😄 Oh, really? Well, tell me something. How would you justify your disbelief in unicorns?

and up untill about 10 years ago Pluto was a planet…now its not

What does the fact that the scientific establishment changed the label it applies to Pluto have to do with anything?

because its common knowlege that unicorns are fictional in the modern world…like pokemon

So the fact that something is commonly accepted is proof that it’s true?

that science is imperfect….its just the act of reasearch
science is just trial and error

No, science is a set of logical tools used to collect and assess information.  Trial and error is part of it, but it’s not the sum.

error being the key word
you’re wrong…

X) So you’re asserting that “trial and error” is a complete summary of the scientific method?

i never spoke of the “scientific method”…..there you go on tangents again

The scientific method is the basis and the core of science.  What aspect of science were you describing as “trial and error” if not the scientific method?

well then the first step is a hypothesis….
you know what that is right… assumption

…No. A hypothesis is not an assumption. And it’s not the first step of the scientific method, either.

and the rest of the steps serve to back up one specific assumption

Wow. Do you really believe that that’s what the scientific method is?

wow….do you know?

Do I know if you’re being serious? Honestly, I do not.

Bad news: we’re all just like Hitler

do you believe in Christianity?

I believe that the Christian religion exists.

but you know that Jesus is the reason youre living and breathing

No, Jesus is not the reason I’m living and breathing.  That’s dumb.

you mommy not give you attentiion as a baby?
she sure gives me attention

X)  What are you even reacting against?  I’ve not said anything particularly unusual.

Im reacting that you are a sad individual

Ah yes.  Everyone who doesn’t feign respect for your belief system is sad.  Gotcha.

I dont care if you believe what I do…  I think its lame you bring hating religion into the world
that tells me you are a sad person with no life

Hey, you brought it up.  If you didn’t want to know my opinion, why’d you ask?
And disrespecting an idea isn’t the same as hating it.

but why is someone believes in something good for them.  Why down that? its better than not believing in anything
a smart man listens and learns regardless of his beliefs

Profound and elaborate self-delusion, even if it’s comforting, isn’t a positive thing, in my opinion.

thats from budha btw
ok and self destruction is???

Well, sure.  If you didn’t believe in anything you probably wouldn’t be able to make any sort of voluntary action.
Who said anything about self-destruction?

well by saying thats self delusional you are implying that
and that alone is making a statement and an oppinion which blocks you learning anything

Why should that be true?  I’m still capable of learning even if I reject certain ideas as true.

why down what uplifts others, judism, muslims, bughist, christians whatever…
if it makes them a better person than good for them

Because allowing bizarre delusions to permeate your life isn’t a positive thing, even if they are comforting.  Would you disagree with that?

comforting; I didnt go to religon for comforting

What are you even arguing, anyway?  “Religion might not actually be true, but it makes people feel good, so you should pretend to agree with it!”?

actually in my case not going was the easier path
I dont care what you think is real or not but downing others beliefs is lame

😄  Really.  So criticizing ideas is bad.  That’s… a funny idea.

yes it is
good for them and good for you on what you believe
but why you need to put someone else down for believing?
something different than you

I don’t criticize people simply because their beliefs are different than mine.  I criticize ideas, in this case, because they’re demonstrably irrational.  It’s not a destructive thing to point out flaws in ideas.  It’s what helps us discard poor ideas in favor of better ones.

who cares

…People who care about reality, who care about whether or not their beliefs are true, and who care about improving the state of humanity, care.

thats what hitler did

😄  Oh, dear lord.  You’ve got to be a troll.

and he failed….

Hitler tried to shield his own beliefs from criticism by getting rid of those who dissented.

lol dont think so; former marine; still 5’11” and 175 lbs
32 inch waste

Congrats on your waist, but you’re still wrong.

solid muscle
you need to get out more bro
and you need to smille more

X)  How can you pretend to have any idea how much I smile?

you seem really smart its a shame you have so much hate

Hate?  Who do I hate?

no I see you do it to be different
thats how you come off when you talk about it
thats what I see; I might be wrong

I’m aggravated by willful ignorance, but I think “hate” might be an exaggeration.

Billions and billions

do you accept jesus as your lord and savior?


but you at least respect the faith, I hope?

Not really. Sometimes I blaspheme Christianity for laughs.

im sure you wouldnt apreciaate it if it was being done about something you care about

If you endorse stupid ideas, you’ve got to be prepared for a bit of mockery.

its is soley your opinion and perspective
thats it is a stupid idea
question are you american?

No, it isn’t. I can demonstrate why the central beliefs of Christianity are irrational.
And, yes, I am American.

it depends first your understanding of chrsitianity
and your understanding or rationality


americans belive in democracy
majority rule correct
the majority determine the law exp

Not exactly. Some rights are fundamental, and the system is designed to guard them even if the majority want to tear them down.

explain the reason

Explain why the American government is democratic?

i agree
the moajority consensus becomes the reality
regarless of whether its against the fundamental rights
everyday americans get fundamental rights violated
because of majority perception

What point are you building toward with all this?

google serche number of christians world wide
you will find a number close to 2.1 billion
over a 3rd of the human population on earth

…You’re not seriously arguing that, because a lot of people believe something, that makes it true?

the majority of any group or organization
no im not

All right. So, what’s your point, then?
And 2.1 billion would be a plurality, not a majority, by the way.

im saying that that determine the reality
and whether that reality is correct or not is irrelevant
according to your own logic

😄 What are you talking about? I’ve made no such claim.

well your american arent you?


so this is american logic applied on a global scale of reason rationality and judgement
by your own standards then you should belive in the reality of the majority

Just because I’m of American nationality doesn’t mean I agree with all of the American government’s policies.

and support it even if you dissagree

You’re completely deranged. The beliefs of the majority do not determine reality.

then you disagree with the central american policy

Sure, maybe. So what? Is that impossible for some reason?

and b4 your criticise christian pov you already are coming from your own distorted pov
hence any observation or point you make is already flawed
i can makle you think anything other then you already limit yourself to

How does any of this change the fact that Christianity is centered on irrational claims?

and so for the simple reason of respect as human beings
i ask that you refrain from making statements disrespecting Christianity

Oh, bullshit. “Respect as human beings” doesn’t mean I should pretend to respect an obvious lie.

you said that thier are natural rights
that a country is supposed to protect

Sure. I’m not violating anyone’s fundamental rights by disrespecting an idea.

you are when its the majorities belif system
you then violate the fundmental right to reality

😄 So I’m violating peoples’ rights by not holding an attitude of respect toward a popular idea? That’s a new one on me.

no your attacking 2.1 billions peoples reality and saying that you are greater then the mojority
making you a hippocrate and unamerican

I don’t mind being called “unamerican,” but there’s nothing hypocritical about pointing out a lie. A lie is a lie, regardless of how many people support it.

their have been many lies belived as truth thourghout history
who are you to try and change ideology and historical truth

I’m a human being who can use and apply basic logic.

truth is relative to the reality in which you are forced to function in
i can speak about lies but i can speak about triuth

The reality of the physical universe is not relative. No matter how many people believe the Earth to be flat, the Earth is still round.

yes and your logic at is core is fundamentally wrong

Oh yes? Can you explain why?

as you can even agree with your own logic
as an american you belive a certain set of truths
yet you deny the same set
of belifs when the subject at hand is changed

The place where I was born does not determine what I believe.

if i use your own label to design your judgement terms you fail yourself

You seem to have this bizarre idea that, since I was born in America, I must hold all the American government’s philosophies.

you said you classify yourself as an american

Sure. I’m an American citizen.

and you identify yourself as an american correct?

I’m an American citizen, yes.

meaning that what other percive an american to be are the rules inwhich a person then forms thier impression of you

Sure. And sometimes (as in your case) their impressions are wrong.

the core american principle is of the people

If you say so.

the people rule
the most people rule
hence majority rule
2.1 billion is the majority

2.1 billion isn’t a majority; it’s a plurality.

are you american if so then you must accept the reality that the majority beleive
or your own individual self is philosophically compromised and you loose the rioght to arhue
argue *

Put down the crack pipe and listen to me for a second.
Just because I was born in America doesn’t mean that I necessarily support any aspect of the American government. To tell me that I must endorse a particular philosophy because of where I was born is just demented.

then dont call yourself american sir

Why not? I’m of American nationality. “America” is a country, not a philosophy.

now i have violated and distorted you as you were to the idea of christ earlyier
like i said we wont ever agree

Not unless you can present evidence that your views are true, no, we probably won’t.

but i wanted you to understand how you can distort other can too so its better if we just keep sensative things to ourslevs,

Of course not. Regardless of how touchy people are, a lie should always be treated as a lie.

i can support eveidence more then you can imagine but its not the type of evidence you value
and you should be known as unamerican
and you may point that out as a lie to all as well
but you said what you said and you know that

I don’t really care about being called “unamerican.” America is just a country.

america is a western hemishpere

…America is a Western Hemisphere, huh?

your own understanding of the label you claim to be is wrong
north america
central america
south america

North America, Central America, and South America are a Western Hemisphere, are they? I’m learning all kinds of new things today.

your perspective need more truth

If when you say “America” you mean the American continent, why were you referring to “America” as basically democratic? Not every nation in North, Central, and South America is democratic.

b4 stating that you can dicern lies learn everything first
truth is not present evidence
its all evidence even the truth you dont know yet
unless you claim to know all things
how could you dicern a single lie

I can discern a lie by checking a claim against reality. No omniscience necessary.

right 2.1 billion

That 2.1 billion people believe something doesn’t make it true.

no its makes it the most true
at that perticular time
at one point in time everyone thought the wprld was flat

Yes, and they were wrong. Or are you arguing that the world was actually flat at that point, despite evidence to the contrary?

like i said history has many lies and lies aboiut lies

Yes, but, as I’ve said, none of this changes the fact that there’s no evidence supporting Christianity’s claims.

and we wont know if we are worng untill you die
so i hope your right for you sake
your the unbeliver

I believe in plenty of things; I just don’t believe in the Christian god.

your the one with something to loose

Going to bust out Pascal’s Wager, huh?

may i ask what you belive in

What, you just want me to start listing things I believe in?

that means i have done my job
your truth is just that your truth

X) No. The truth is the truth, objectively.

but your truth isnt natural law
niether is mine
but collective truth is natural law

No, “collective truth” is nothing more than collective opinion.

until natural law gets updated with more recent truth
i fundamentaly disagree
collective truth is reality
what color do you see when you message me

The label I put on the color is “pink.”

just as the lebel you put on yourself was american


you get the point im maikng
im not actually arguing about god here
or american ideals
its the power of labels
because they fundamentally are percived as truth

That’s not what you’ve been arguing, though. You’ve been arguing that collective opinion actually determines reality.

and col;lective labels definine opinon
theirefore determinine the collective label determines the collective truth

Systems of labeling do influence opinion, yes.

i see pink as well
therefore we typ in pink
this become truth but not law
as my screen setting could be off and it could appear as red
hence our truths differ
but the fact that we are typing remins

No. Our opinions differ, though one or both of us could be wrong.

you dont know what is really a lie pr truth
and will never be able to know

Sure I do. I can check claims against observable reality.

how can you tell me its wrong
if its wat i see
if i see red
its red
2.1 billion

You do realize that the “2.1 billion” doesn’t impress me, right? 500 billion billion billion people could believe that 1+1=5, but that wouldn’t stop 1+1 from making 2.

2.1 billion see christ you have no right to say other wise
yes its the simplal fact

😄 I have a right to express my views, no matter what they are, and no matter how many people disagree with them.

the argument i want you to realize that your attacking
is putting your opinions and judgement at the same level of truth as 2.1 billion ppl

No– my judgment, because it has an evidentiary basis, is superior, not equal, to the unevidenced opinion of the 2.1 billion.

if you had 2.1 billion ppl in your corner who see what you see then you could make an equal claim
define evidence
if i give you an example that contraditcs your logic then you understand you whole argument is done ?
so please define evidence

If you give me an argument that disproves the basis of my logic, sure, I would abandon it. But you’re clearly insane, so I don’t feel too threatened.
Anyway, evidence is testable data drawn from reality.

ok im the insane one me and 2.1 billion
at least im not alone

X) I’d rather be sane and alone than insane. But, of course, there are billions upon billions of non-Christians, so there you go.

well jesus was also alone while everyone else was inane so maybe you should start the next relgion

No thanks; I doubt the world would benefit from yet another religion.

but all divided not unified
they dont label themselves as non christians they leabel themselves as what they are
not by what you are not

What “?”?

sorry mistype lol
i am enjoying this debate by the way

It’s certainly unusual.
Any other knockdown arguments you’d like to deploy upon me?

anyway, can you measure life
can you test for it
is it tangable
or are you used to measuring the effects of life
not life itself
can you proove that i am alive right now?

Well, no matter what you’re measuring, you’re measuring its effects. There is no such thing as a truly direct measurement of anything.

ahh and so you never have true eveidence
or perfect truth

Sure, there’s evidence. Just because a measurement is indirect doesn’t make it somehow invalid.

and so you dont have enough information to properly discern

…Sure I do. All input is, to a degree, indirect. If I look at the sun in the sky, I’m really just using a simulation based on electrical signals translated from photons. But that doesn’t make it wrong to say, “The sun is in the sky.”

so then everything is a second sorce

All input is somewhat indirect, sure. Though I wouldn’t call it a “second source.”

not if on another planet somewhere that same sun is in the water
and sense you cannt know if there is life somewhee else you cant determine

Sure we can. If we find life somewhere else, then we’ve determined that there is life somewhere else.

if your statement is actually law or just your truth
but if you havent and there is what then

What is there? There’s an uncertainty about the existence of extraterrestrial life.

and unknown unknowns

Sure, but so long as there’s no evidence that a proposition is true, there’s no reason to suppose it is true.

just casue you dont know that its not there dont mean its not there
so un evidenced belifs may be true

Of course. That statement’s more in line with my philosophy than yours.

so the lack of knowing is the lack of belifs


then untill you experience certain events you wont know what others know

None of this changes the fact that it’s not rational to endorse an assertion if there’s no evidence that that assertion is true.

yes it is
whats my philosophy

Oh, you know, consensus reality and all that nonsense.

if you have evidence
that only you can understand

“Evidence that only you can understand” sounds more like a symptom of schizophrenia than good science.

just cause someone may not get it dont make it untrue

Sure, but, once more, that doesn’t change the fact that there is no evidence that the central claims of Christianity are true.

well lets go there, heh why not wat do you feel are the central claims as a non beleiver
of christianityz
and as a beliver i will try to show you eveidence that you cant understand

Oh, you know– the existence of an omnipotent god who created and maintains the universe, the existence of an afterlife. That sort of thing.

your talking to him

You’re claiming to be god, then?

nope im part of him
so are you


your that part of us that dont belive im the part that does
because of each other we both exist
because we both know what we arent
and therefore become self aware
hence we become consicous

Is this supposed to be the proof, right here?

why not if you take it that way
hence we are all places at all times and collectively know all things
hence the collective truth is more true

This isn’t proof. This is just a bunch of assertions.

lol gotta chuckle at that one
its evidence you cant understand
and you wont be able to
because if you could then you wouldnt exist they way that you do

A characteristic of evidence is that it’s independently verifiable, and that it’s falsifiable. All your gibberish about how I’m part of god and you’re part of god and so on is not something that readily fulfills that characteristic.

but we arent independant of each other
so my trutrh is yours and vice versa

No. There’s no “my truth” and “your truth.” We have separate views, but truth exists objectively.

this is the exact exaple a evidence in the form of a second source

Here’s a question for you.

soooo, come on you can figure out the rest from here
ahh ok shoot

If 2.1 billion people decided they didn’t need to eat food anymore, would they starve to death or not?


You really don’t know?

the collectie would come to that belif unless they had some greater knowlege
perhaps we have becoem self sufficent gentically by tha time
or we find new ways to create nutrition
its an unknown unknown
but i sure hope that if 2.1 billion know they share with everyone else who dont

As charming as this has all been, I have to go.

i wish you the very best sir
good luck
nice speaking with you

Righto. Goodbye.

At least he’s got a good opener

noone likes u


my friend said u were blasfeming jesus

Ah.  Yes, that’s probably true.

shut it, noone listens to u

Your friend seems to have listened to me.

shut the fuk up! give a little respect to other guys who believe in him! there is science proof he was on earth! show some respect!

Sorry, but I don’t respect obvious lies.  You’ll have to forgive me for that.

then get a good religion, find something to believe in, and let us do our own stuff. just shut up

If you endorse a stupid idea you’re probably going to be ridiculed for it from time to time.  You should be prepared for that.

back at u, just stop the insults! let us go to heaven, get down to hel fast if ur gonna do this

LOL.  I’m not stopping you from going to “Heaven.”

oh STFU! send me a calling card from hell asking for forgiveness

Forgiveness for what?  Refusing to feign respect for your silly beliefs?

dude, get to ur local church fast.

Going to a church won’t change a lie into the truth.

i guess ur just athiast… fine, i tried, but u wont listen…

I’m perfectly game to listen.  If you can show me any proof that your religion is the truth, I’ll be happy to assess it.

the only lies here is the crap ur saying

All right.  Prove it.  Prove that your god exists.

the dead sea scrolls, if he didnt get the world going, who did

…How do the dead sea scrolls prove that the Christian god exists?

nvm them now. god created the world, made light, and the first two ppl. the science side of the story has a connection, but its hard to explain

Can you actually prove that your god made the world, light, and so forth?

give me ur opinion of what happened, u tell me now

Opinion of what happened when?

how was the world created in ur eyes, the sphere of rock and metal, which we are standing on now.

The Earth was, in my eyes (and in reality) formed principally from nebular matter drawn together by gravity.

scientifically, eh, well, would u at least TRY to read the bible? open it up and read the story of creation

I have read the Bible, and I’m familiar with the Biblical creation myth.  In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth etc.

Myth? wow, ur hopeless, literally, lets just drop this, i want u to know that u have my, and God’s pity. dont reply if u hear me.

Sure it’s a myth.  You certainly haven’t proven that it’s true.

… im sorry, im not able to convince u. but if u have no religion, and u believe ur going to heII, get something to believe, get life

…I don’t believe I’m going to Hell, of course.  And I believe plenty of things, just no things involving magical spirits.

ok, i guess u do wat u want. fine

Sure.  Good job proving yourself, by the way. 😄

: ( just drop this conversation, ur stubborn, ive converted ppl before.

Well, if you could show me proof that your god exists, I would be converted on the spot.  If you fail to convert me, it can only be because you have no evidence.

…i have enough evidence, i also have evidence that ur stubborn.

If you have evidence, why won’t you show it to me?

i have, this can go for hours, but have to go. cya never i guess  :{

LOL.  Excellent job defending your faith.  Goodbye.

Bye-bye.  i tried…

Not really.

The power cord of Christ compels you

I’m sorry if this is not true, but I heard you are lecturing people on why Jesus isnt real.

X)  Well, I don’t know about “lecturing,” but I have been explaining, in the course of conversation, why I don’t believe that Jesus was a god.

You could be destroying someones faith! This is sirious. VERY sirious

You seriously think that someone is going to deconvert from their religion just because of what I’ve been saying?

a new Christain could.

That wouldn’t bother me, anyway.

What do you believe then? the big bang?

I believe in a lot of things. The legitimacy of the Big Bang theory would be one of those things.

according to the big bang theory. The world started with a fire ball right?


then what?

The Big Bang theory states that the Universe is in a state of expansion, that it was once denser than it is now.

I thought the big bang theory started with a fire ball blowing up in space

No; that’s incorrect.

then how did the world start?

The Earth was formed by particulate matter in a nebula drawn together by gravity.

where did the gravity come from if the universe was just a void?

The Universe isn’t just a void.

ok who created the gravity, how did it get there?
who created the matter? how did it get there?

Gravity is an effect of matter. As for “who” created matter, there’s no particular reason to think that a “who” did it.

then what did it?

There’s no way to know for sure, at present. Very little is known about the pre-Big Bang universe.  If you really want to know about what hypotheses exist, you might want to ask a physicist.  I’m just a layman.

why is it called the big bang theory if nothing exploded in your versain?

The name “Big Bang” is a kind of nickname.  It’s just the name that happens to have been popularized.   And it’s not “my version.” The Big Bang theory doesn’t describe an explosion at all.

well the big bang theory I’ve read about starts with a fireball exploding in the void that was the universe.

What you’ve read is inaccurate, then. As accounts of the Big Bang in creationist propaganda usually are.  How would you have fire in a vacuum, anyway?

it wasn’t creationest

At any rate, it’s still incorrect.

It was evolutionest

Well, like I say. Creationist or evolutionist, they were incorrect.

so what makes you right or them right and the Bible wrong?

What makes me right is that my claims are backed up by evidence.

and what evidence?

What’s the evidence for the Big Bang theory, you mean?

the stuff in museums right? well you know an arceologest came forward about a year ago and confessed to falsified evidence

Archaeology has nothing to do with the Big Bang theory.

I mean evolution.

That was a rather abrupt topic shift… X)
Anyway, the evidence for evolution is so overwhelming that even if a hundred archaeologists confessed to falsifying evidence, it wouldn’t weaken it substantially.

ok, tell me evidence for evolution. And evidence against the Bible
btw, have you ever taken biology?

Yeah, sure. As for evidence for evolution, you’ve got things like fossil stratification, preserved genetic markers, and of course directly-observed instances of evolution.  Would you like me to focus on any of those in particular?

have you ever seen it?
if not then how do you know it wasn’t falsified?

Because the evidence for any properly-conducted scientific experiment is up for scrutiny. If the conclusions of the experiment were bunk, they’d be found out almost immediately. To maintain it would take a conspiracy of unprecedented size and efficiency.

want to bet? The ppl that would have been checking it would have wanted evolution to be true too

LOL. So, what are you suggesting? A completely unified, completely secret, centuries-old conspiracy of biologists?

Its not a conspiracy, its ppl that are very misguided
no, I’m suggesting that ppl like you, don’t want to believe there is a God
because that would mean you having to follow his rules

What does god have to do with evolution? Most evolutionists believe in a god.

if they really did, then they would believe the Bible
if you say you believe in God, then why not the word of God?
Because the word of God tells you the rules

Firstly, not all Christians are biblical literalists. Secondly, not all theists are Christians.

It tells you not to cheat, not to steal not to commit adultery.
most ppl don’t want to obey those things
So they pretend there is no God.

X) So you’re saying that my disbelief in god stems from a desire to cheat, steal, and commit adultery.

no, I’m saying that your disbelife in God stems from a sinful nature

And, of course, an enthusiasm for rationality and evidentiary reasoning.  Or is that sinful also?

you want to make up your own rules

I want to determine for myself the best way to live morally.  Nothing wrong with that.

if you really wanted to think about this ratonally, you would look up the evidence from both sides

And I have. There’s simply no evidence for creationism.

If you really wanted to find out the truth, you would do reaserch

I have researched pretty extensively for someone who’s not a professional scientist.

you would do reaserch on Christains
You would go to their web sites and see what they have to say

I’m actually pretty familiar with Christian culture and mythology.

You would go to their churches and see what they have to say

X) Look, can you provide any actual evidence for your assertions, or not?

yes actually I can
have you read through the whole Bible?


I do not believe you.

That’s nice.

its the truth

I’m sure.

what is numbers about?
And if you go look it up on google God will know believe me

😄 Well, he would, wouldn’t he?

Yes actually he would

Anyway, if I recall correctly, Numbers is one of the Jews-wandering-around-in-the-desert books.  I could be wrong, though; it’s not like I have the entire Bible memorized.

Numbers is about the laws that God laid down for his ppl.
Quote John 3

For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him will not perish but will have everlasting life
Or words to that effect.

close enough,
Romans 3:23?

I’m not sure. Is that the “For all have sinned…” one?

you still had better not be looking this up
Yes it is

If I am, I’m sure Jesus will make sure I’m tortured a little harder in the afterlife.

quote it to me pls. One day you won’t be laughing

What, the Romans verse?

yeah 3:23

All I can recall off the top of my head is “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god.”

very close.
ik you don’t believe those two verses

You would be, for once, correct.

but you really have to listen to me plz.
I am trying to help you

I am listening to you, but without proof that your claims are true, they’re pretty much worthless to me.

Nobody could have made up the Bible

Says who? Mankind’s shown itself to be pretty good at making up folk tales and holy texts.

Says me, look for a flaw in the Bilbe
There are like dozens of prophisies that were prophisized in the old testiment that came true in the new.

Hold on. Here’s a flaw for you.
John 1:18 – “No man hath seen God at any time.”
Gen. 32:30 “And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

in one particular prophesy, I don’t remember who it was but he saw tanks in a vision.

X) Mhm. And did he describe the tanks completely unambiguously and in detail?

You should look it up.
on google, : )

You’re the one making the claim; can you direct me to the bit in the Bible you claim describes tanks?

somehow I have the feeling that tanks weren’t invented when you say the Bible was
Your the one that needs help
Oh, and btw just because he said he has seen God doesn’t mean he did
It could be a figure of speach

Exodus 6:3 – “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob….”

Or he could’ve believed that he had, without actually seeing him

That’s your god talking there. Or is he speaking “figuratively”? X)

He appeared to them

If he’s speaking figuratively there, how do you know he wasn’t speaking figuratively about the whole creation business?

No man can see God through his glory, I very much doubt they actually saw him

So “I have seen him face-to-face” means that he didn’t actually see him directly. Brilliant.

He may have thought he had

Anyway, can you direct me to the bit of the Bible you claim describes tanks, or have you just forgotten that bit?

I told you I don’t remember where it is, but I’ll find it for ya


(Twenty minutes pass.)
and read the WHOLE thing and the Bible references
If you don’t believe after that you do not have an open mind at all

So you can’t actually provide me with a chapter/verse location for this supposed mention of a tank?

I’m not sure if it has that in there. But it def has the re establishment of isreal. And that has happened in recent years

Yup. I fail to see how that’s something that it would have required supernatural knowledge to predict, though.  Even if Israel were never reestablished, you could just say, “It’s going to happen in the future.”

lol maybe it doesn’t, but hey. You have to admit there is some evidence weither you want to admit it or not

X) A book that claims that a god exists also makes some not-particularly-hard-to-make “prophecies,” some of which have come true and some of which haven’t.  That’s not very impressive evidence. And you’re trying to prove some pretty lofty claims here.

I don’t have to prove anything, this is your life, your fate.

You’re the one making claims. You said you had proof. You do have a responsibility to back up your claims.
If you’re unwilling to prove your claims, why make them in the first place?

I can see that even if I did prove that tanks were prophisized in the Bible ( and they were)

Sure, that wouldn’t constitute proof that your god exists.

You still wouldn’t believe me

Unless you can provide evidence, no, I won’t.

You wouldn’t even if I did, your mind is closed my friend.

X) No. If you had evidence, I would gladly assess it.

I’ll be praying for you, I’m sorry I wasn’t able to help

Don’t bother with praying; just show me some evidence that your claims are true.  I’m not asking much.

You wouldn’t believe me, and you wouldn’t
I already have, and you aren’t listening

Yeah? What’s your evidence, again?

try this one my dad just found it
oops sry that was supposed to be a / at the end

Look, I accept that the Bible said that Israel would eventually be reestablished, and then it was.

And I really don’t think you looked at the previous site I gave you either
so you really think that a dim witted human couldn’ve predicted that centuries later?
what site?

What site what?

you never gave me a site

Yeah, I don’t think I linked you anywhere. What are you talking about?

you just said you did mate

…I didn’t say I linked you to anything.

Check out those two sites, talk to a pastor at a good christian church.

Yeah? A “good Christian church,” e.g. one of your specific denomination?

do your reserch, if you truely want to know the truth you will find it.

😄 I have done my research. Are you even listening to me? What you’ve presented would not convince anyone who didn’t already want to believe.

no, it could be baptist prodestent cathlic I really don’t care

How about the Unitarian Universalists?

they are not Christain. Ppl claim to be that believe in evolution and say they believe in the Bible
But you cannot believe both

X) Oh? So what about the Catholics, then? They’re far from universally creationist.

As long as you go to a christain catholic church, its fine

And how am I to know that the Catholics are any righter than the Unitarians, or the Muslims for that matter?

because of the truth
You will know if you really honestly try
The same thing happened to me

I do try. My beliefs are based on evidence. Yours are based on ambiguous “prophecies.”  And, trust me, all the “proof” that you can provide, a Muslim can provide as well.

lol those “ambiguous” prophecies have come true

Well, yes. The more ambiguous a prophecy is, the more likely it can eventually be said to have come true.

yeah if the world is as old as you say it is, do you actually know the possobilites of evolotion coming to pass?
It was the chance of you winning the ten million dollor lottery with one lorrery ticket over a million consecutive years.

…I suppose you imagine that evolution describes some sort of random, chance occurrence, then.

I think that darwin (sry can’t spell) is up there somwhere in Hell feeling very sorry that he had givin up on his faith, and started.
billions of ppl to join him
I’m sure the devil is pleased.
I’ll cya later

X) The Devil is pleased by science and rational thinking? Sounds like an okay guy to me…

If you can swear to me that you honestly try to find the truth.

I think you’d benefit more from swearing that than I would.

then I will find you your evidence

As I’ve said repeatedly, I’ll gladly assess any evidence you put before me.

thats not good enough, idk you you could be lying.

Only one way to find out: show me some actual evidence for your claims.

JUst like everyone else who wants to believe that they know what the truth is
only if you’ll swear by my God that you will actually consicer it.

Screw your god. I’ll swear on my own integrity, though.

swear on both then
right now

No. I’d no sooner swear on your god than you would swear on Osiris or Mammon.

NOt on my God, to my God

I’ll swear to your god if you swear to Osiris.

I don’t swear, the Bible tells us not to.

No dice, then.

right there is proof you havn’t read the entire Bible
it was a pretty good lie though, you got close to convincing me

I’m trying to make a point, which you apparently missed: ordering someone to swear to a god they don’t believe in is unreasonable.

why? if you don’t believe in Him, then you have nothing to fear from him.

Because it’s stupid and undignified. I’d sooner swear to Hitler than I would to your god.

and besides if you honestly would try to consider the evidence you would do it.

So you keep claiming, but, as ever, you refuse to present any evidence.

I presented the evidence you needed idiot. you didn’t listen to me, you didn’t even look at it.

Someone said Israel would reform and then later it did, therefore the Christian god exists!” is not evidence.

YOu know what that tells me? it tells me that your a liar to say that you would consider any evidence
You didn’t even look at the evidence. I’m sorry. I truely am scared for you.

I did look at your evidence. I just didn’t accept it.  It was nonsense. If I showed you some Islamic “prophecies,” would that convince you to be a Muslim? Of course not.

And I am very very sorry, that I wasn’t able to help
You didn’t read all the evidence don’t you dare lie to me again

Oh, don’t try to take the high moral ground with me. You’re not concerned with the truth.

if there were dozens and dozens of them that came true, that weren’t previously stated in the Bible then it might
They believe in one God too you know

But what if they were vague, ambiguous, or predictive of not particularly improbable events?

then no I wouldn’t, but the prophecies in the Bible aren’t like that and if you really read and concidered it.
You would know that.

X) So you keep claiming. But, in reality, there’s nothing in what you linked me that requires supernatural influence to account for.


Oh, I didn’t? Well, that’s news to me; I distinctly remember reading over it.

we are talking about where you are going to be forever!
and if you don’t listen to me, believe me you will regret it.

I am listening to you! But you’re not giving me any reason to believe you know what you’re talking about.  All you’re giving me is run-of-the-mill religious hokum.

ok, I’ll tell you about something that God did for me
we were moving to a new house
I still doubt you’ll belive me though.
I had forgotten to unplug the power chord to my laptop
and take it with me to our new house
I checked several timies in my laptop bag.
And it wasn’t there.
I prayed, and asked him to please send it to me somehow.
and he did
it showed up in my laptop bag
right where it should’ve been
and you don’t believe me because you didn’t see it yourself right?

…THAT’S your proof that god exists? You lost your laptop power adapter and then found it again?

well you know what, you haven’t seen the evidence for evolution yourself

Sure I have. It’s manifested in the organisms all around me.

thats your proof of God, not evolution
you seriously think that all that couldn’ve come from a big bang that you don’t know how started

I don’t think that life was started by the Big Bang, no.

then God didn’t give you much of a brain

X) Yes. If only I were smart enough to attribute commonplace occurrences to magic spirits.  Say, do you do rain dances too?

(Five minute pause.)

sry my brother was asking what sort of pizza I wanted.

Did you see god’s hand in that event, as well?

Magic has nothing to do with God.
no I didn’t, I had checked the pocket a moment before, and after I prayed I checked again and it was there.

Hey– once I lost my keys, and I could have sworn I checked my pockets, and then later it turned out they were in my pocket.
Was that god, you reckon?

could you have sworn?
I don’t think so

Yeah, sure. I was pretty sure I had checked my pockets, but it later turned out that’s where they were.

Pretty sure, isn’t the same as positivly sure.
do you know anyone else who can make a laptop chord appear right in front of your eyes?

Yes, only the MIGHTY HAND OF YAHWEH could have accomplished such a miracle!
Hey, does your god do any other tricks? Can he help me remember my PIN number when I forget it?

yes, he can. If you really believe it when you ask him. He will

Oh, wow. Truly, His power is majestic.

no, its not just majestic, its so awesome we can’t understand it.

Hey, sometimes my lips get dry. Can He help me with that, too? Or is that beyond His power?

you know.

He can help me with that, too?  Wow.  I can see why you worship him.

the difference with this, is that if you convince me to become an evolutionest.

Oh, come on. I can’t convince you to become an evolutionist; you’d have to value evidence in order for me to do that.

and if you were right.
then I would die, and be dead.
If I’m right, your going to die, and your going to live forever.
but your going to live forever in Hell.

Ah, going to bring out Pascal’s Wager, huh?

who on earth is that?

Blaise Pascal. He made the argument you’re making in its best-known form.
The problem with it is that “Something bad might happen to you if you don’t believe proposition X!” is not evidence that proposition X is actually true.

you didn’t look at the evidence
I can give you one more piece right now.

Even more impressive than the power cord thing?

its called a testemony
from my Aunt
She was on President Bush’s board of advisors.

I’m sure she’s impeccably honest, then.

if you don’t want to see it, I won’t show it to you.

Is it something that’s testable and independently verifiable?  If not, it’s probably best you don’t squander my time with it.

ok then, this time swear on your intergrity, that you will watch the whole video, pay attention, and keep an open mind.
it is incontestable evidence.

Oh really? Well, I look forward to seeing it, then.

unless your stupid, or you believe that she is telling lies.

Or that she’s honestly mistaken.

it is completely undisputible.
if she was honestly mistaking, she wouldn’t have been on Bush’s board.

People on Bush’s board of directors never make mistakes?  Who knew?

lol and she wouldn’t have the physical trouble that she does right now.

Just show me the video. I hope it contains something other than someone telling an unverifiable story about how Jebus cured their cancer.

she never would’ve gotten there if she had been.
only if you swear on your intergrity. To give it your full attention, and keep an open mind. and WATCH THE WHOLE THING.

Unless it’s excessively long, sure, I will.

Swear it.

I am. I swear it. I hereby swear. Okay, go.

to everything I said?

Yes, with the proviso about length.

remember all of it. and it isn’t like eight hours long.

(I begin watching the video.  It’s a recording of a church service that opens with a long procession of announcements of goings-on at the church.)

Mhm. When does the relevant bit begin? I’m not interested in your church’s water system.

idk, actually, but you can’t fastforward and thats not my church.

I have to run to work at this point, I’m afraid. I’ll be back tomorrow, though, and we can pick this up.

you see there you go again
have a good day at work if thats really where your going.

Yes, I have to go to work. Sorry; I don’t think that they give days off for religious debates.

most ppl where I live are off work by now
not just starting.

Not that it’s any of your business, you pious little worm, but I work night shift.

whatever, plz watch the video after you get off.

You remember the bit where I agreed to, don’t you?

if you don’t believe it, then there is no point in picking this up.

We’ll pick it back up. I’ll be glad to deconstruct it for you.

yes I do, but I don’t know you. therefore idk if you honor your word.

Then why did you insist that I swear?

you can do anything you like.
if thats all your going to do, when you see me again
then I’m not picking it back up, there is no reason to.

Don’t like to hear critiques of your own arguments, huh?

I don’t like to hear ppl insult my Father.
or his Son
you did that today.
and anything you would have to say against my aunt’s story

😄  “I’m going to make an argument, but you’re not allowed to counter it!”  Very good.
Well, I’ll be back tomorrow. Whether you want to have a discussion or whether you want to stick your fingers in your ears and shout “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU” is up to you.

(The central bit of the video is a woman talking about how she drifted away from Jesus, was promiscuous, got HIV, and then came back to Jesus and got married so now everything’s better.

I did return the next day.  I explained that the video didn’t actually show anything beyond one woman’s opinion that her life had been influenced by Jesus; he insisted that the video constituted irrefutable proof of his god’s existence, and so on, and then jumped abruptly to the Big Bang.  Then I inadvertently closed the browser window before I could copy/paste this portion of the conversation.)

Sorry about that.  Browser hiccup.  What were you saying?

see, everytime I bring up a point you know is right you pretend you didnt hear
I said do you really believe it all happened by chance and you said no
so then what started it?
there was no sentient life, if your right there was no God

Well, there’s no way to know for certain how abiogenesis occurred.

there you go see?

However, one plausible hypothesis is that a simple, self-replicating molecule formed, which served as the progenitor to DNA.

If I’m right, I know for sure how life occured
So thats not chance?

No, not really. It’d be an occurrence governed by nonrandom physical laws.

and how on earth did the pysical laws get there?
or the molocules that self replicated?

The self-replicator might have been assembled by a reaction caused by electromagnetic discharge of some kind, but, as I said, we can’t know for sure.

Well, answer me. How did they get there? who or what put them there?

How did what get where?

so then where did the electircity come from for the electromagnetic discharge
It can’t just appear out of nowhere. If God isn’t involved.

As I’ve said repeatedly, we don’t know for sure, if the hypothesis is correct, the electricity could have come from lightning, from static discharge, etc.  The places electricity usually comes from in nature.

your not listening, without God something can’t be made out of nothing.

I never claimed that something was made out of nothing.

ok, then where did the life come from?

I’ve already explained this to you. Would you like me to copy/paste it again?

molocules can’t be made from nothing without God any more than life can be.
Think mate! It doesn’t make any sense

…I never claimed that molecules were “made from nothing.”

“YOu know precious litlte about the start.”
then how did they form?

I said that there’s no way to know precisely how abiogenesis occurred.  However, I described a plausible hypothesis.

abiogenesis, how can it occur without something for it to occur with?

…Well, if there was no matter, then, no, it wouldn’t be able to occur.

Thank you!
So then, now in your mind, how did it happen?

As I’ve just explained, one plausible hypothesis is that a simple, self-replicating molecule was assembled, possibly by a reaction caused by electrical discharge.

where did the electrical discharge come from dude?
if there was nothing there to make it happen, it couldn’t have happened

As I’ve explained repeatedly, we have no way to know, but it’s possible that it could have come from lightning, static, etc.

Then where did they come from?!

Would you like me to explain how lightning and static electricity work?

I would like you to tell me, how if there was nothing there in the beginning of time.
How would ANYTHING have been formed?

We don’t know what conditions at the origin of the Universe were like. Very little is known about the pre-Big Bang universe.

yeah you keep saying that

As for lightning, I believe it occurs when a negative charge builds up in the clouds, equalizing by exchanging a charge with the ground.

but if nobody put anything there, in the “pre big bang universe

Please shut up for a second and let me complete my point.

then how on earth did anything form?

Static electricity functions according to basically the same principle. A negative charge is built up, and then equalizes.

my question is unanswerable
so for petes sake where did the negative charges come from?

It would depend on the specific instance. You can build up a negative charge in your body by shuffling your socks against a carpet, for example.  Once more, I’m no scientist, but I think that the finer points of the causes of cloud lightning are actually still debated.

yeah but how did that get there in the pre big bang universe
Your ignoring my spacific question
my question is.
if nobody put anything in the pre big bang universe then how did it happen?
If nobody put anything in the pre big bang universe then how did it happen?

As I’ve already explained, we don’t yet know what processes were at work in the pre-Big Bang universe.

YOu don’t know, right becuase its impossible to have happened

What’s impossible to have happened? The existence of a pre-Big Bang universe?

Nothing can form out of nothing

Okay. Well, I’ve not claimed that anything could form out of nothing, so no problem there.

YOu are claiming that
by saying that something can form out of nothing, in the pre big bang universe

You’ve apparently not been listening. I haven’t claimed that at all.

How else could it have happened?

I can’t say how the inception of the Universe occurred. No one can; we don’t presently have sufficient information.

If something didn’t come from nothing then how else could the pre big bang universe have happened?

I can’t say how the inception of the Universe occurred. No one can; we don’t presently have sufficient information.

Now look whos the one without proof

One without proof of what? I have proof for all the claims I’ve made.  This “Something came from nothing!” claim is purely of your invention; it’s not something I assert.

my question is How? How? How? If nothing created anything, than if your right we wouldn’t exist

I don’t think that nothing created something.

Then how did it happen? if nothing created an negitive discharge, if nothing created a lightning bolt?
how did it happen?

…What? I’ve already explained to you how a negative charge can accumulate, haven’t I?

yes but you didn’t tell me how it accumulates from NOTHING

It wouldn’t accumulate from nothing.

I’m going to keep pressing this until it clicks with you
so then how did the thing it acumulated from get formed?

I don’t think that anything came from nothing. You’re attacking a belief I don’t hold.

you obviously hold it if you believe in a pre big bang universe
Dont you understand?

I understand that you seem to have some kind of grievious misunderstanding of basic logic.

the only want the big bang theory works is if something came from nothing

No. The Big Bang theory has nothing to do with “something coming from nothing.” It describes a universe in a state of expansion; that’s all.

and if you believe in the big bang theory than you believe that something came from nothing
so how did the expanding universe get there?

No. If I believe in the Big Bang theory, I believe that the Universe has been in a state of expansion.

How did the expanding universe get there?

I can’t say how the inception of the Universe occurred. No one can; we don’t presently have sufficient information.

the reason you don’t
is because its impossible

It’s impossible for a universe to have existed and then expanded?

Yes, without a God involved in it

Can you explain why?

because as you keep saying nothing can come from nothing

A pre-expansion universe wouldn’t have to be “nothing.” Do you understand that?

Yes, but a pre expansion universe would have had to come from somewhere
do you understand that?


so then where did your pre expansion universe come from?

I can’t say how the inception of the Universe occurred. No one can; we don’t presently have sufficient information.

and don’t say very little information is known
And now we’re back to the same point

Yes, one which you apparently fail to grasp.

because its impossible

It’s impossible for a universe to have existed, and then to have expanded?  You’ve certainly not explained why that must be true.

YES IT IS IMPOSSIBLE! You’ve explianed it yourself

Well, why don’t you reiterate it for me?

because nothing can come from nothing
if there wasn’t anyone behind the creation of something in the beginning

That wouldn’t have to occur for a universe to exist and then to begin expansion.

Then we would still be nothing

LOL. Wait, so that’s your argument? “I can’t think of any non-god way the Universe could have come to exist, therefore it must have been god.”?


I can’t say how the inception of the Universe occurred. No one can; we don’t presently have sufficient information.

So your still saying that something can come from nothing
I think your the one with the logic problem here

I’ve never said that something came from nothing.


I can’t say how the inception of the Universe occurred. No one can; we don’t presently have sufficient information.

and stop saying insufficint data

Sorry, but it’s the truth.

No it isn’t

Oh really? You have some verifiable evidence showing how the Universe originally began?

the only reason you don’t have enough facts is because the whole theory is balony

What theory? I’m saying that there is no established theory.

The universe began with God, because he is the only one who can create something like this

Okay. Prove it.

Right, so you believe in an unestablished theory?

No, I don’t endorse any one theory, because there isn’t sufficient data to make a judgment on the basis of.

You believe in a Theroy thats impossible
I am proving the existance of God
Because even you have to admit
If he does exist
And he is as powerful as the Bible tells us, HE can create something out of nothing

When are you going to start showing me evidence for your god’s existence?

That is evidence, nothing else makes sense
because nothing else is established

What you’re saying is, “I can’t think of any other way it could have happened, therefore it must have happened this way.”

and nothing else ever will be established
Right, there is no other way it could possible have happened

Prove it, then.

sherlock holms said that when you eliminate all options whatever remains, however unlikely must be the truth.
I did prove it

No, you didn’t. You’ve just said “My god is the only way it could have happened!” and then refused to back that statement up in any way.

I did back it up

Hell, even if we do accept that it was a god, why the Christian god? Why not Ra or Zeus?

by eliminating all other options

No, you didn’t. You’ve just made claim after claim without providing any proof to support them.

lol because in greek mythology Zeus showed himslef to ppl

Sure, but perhaps he’s changed his ways since then. Perhaps he’s died.

I revealed your Theory as completely bogus

What theory?

the big bang theory, evolution in general

…Neither evolution nor the Big Bang have anything to do with the original creation of the Universe.

your off your rocker, everything I’ve ever heard about both states that thats how the universe and us got here

I’m afraid you’re misinformed, then.
Evolution describes changes in allele frequency in populations over time.
The Big Bang theory describes a universe that has expanded.

and where on earth did all that come from?

What, alleles?

sry my brother was talking to me about chips and quesodillas what were you saying?
or did you say anything?

You asked where “all that” came from. And I said, “What, alleles?”

Everything, where did anything come from?
if not from a God

As for where “anything” came from, that’d depend on what specifically you were talking about.

Ok so say, that my God is the wrong god

As for where “everything” came from…  I can’t say how the inception of the Universe occurred. No one can; we don’t presently have sufficient information.

that only means that its false
thats all your saying

What only means that what is false?

That you don’t have enough data, only means that the big bang and evolution are false

The Big Bang theory and the theory of evolution don’t describe the original creation of the Universe.

Then what in your mind does discribe it?

There’s no theory that endeavors to explain the origin of the Universe that I endorse, because I don’t have enough relevant information to make that judgment.

So you don’t believe in anything then.

I believe in many things.

OK well, I’ll tell you one thing.
the idols and gods that other religions worship.
they aren’t just statues
they are demons

Ahem.  I’m sorry– go on.

so they are more powerful than humans, and they can influence ppl in the wrong direction
The Bible says that we all have a kind of internal tracking device
it points us in the right direction toward God.

Cool. So, are you finally going to show me some evidence that your claims are true, now, or…?

We wouldn’t ignore it if their wern’t demons at work all over the world
the proof of that I have is in ancient cultures, they worshiped the sun and the moon, but they also worshiped a God that must have created
he sun and the moon
they didn’t say it started with a big bang

So… because primitive cultures didn’t believe the Big Bang theory, it must be untrue?

or with green goop in a crevice

…Who said anything about green goop in a crevice?

because I proved it wrong is why it must be untrue

You haven’t proven that the Universe isn’t expanding. You haven’t even addressed that.

according to everything I’ve seen thats how evolution was supposed to start

Wow. Okay. Somebody’s been reading too much creationist propaganda.
Nobody claims that evolution began with “green goop in a crevice.”

Thats not where I get it form

Well, wherever you’re getting it from, it’s bizarrely backwards.

you know, all the matter coming together, then forming the “simplest” of life forms

Say, how did you prove that the Universe wasn’t expanding, again? I must have missed that bit.

if that had been the truth, ancient cultures woulnd’t have even guessed that a supernatural being was involved
And I couldn’t care less if the universe is expanding

You just said that you disproved the Big Bang theory.

If it is thats the way God designed it

I’m just asking you to reiterate to me your disproof.

I disproved it because in order for it to be true something has to have come from nothing

In order for the Universe to have expanded, something has to have come from nothing?

boy you are just not clicking
In order for the big bang theory to even have started something would’ve had to come from nothing

So what you’re saying is that something did not come from nothing, therefore the Universe is not expanding.

so now that we’ve disproved that it couldn’t have started from, lets work on other gods
no I’m saying that because nothing can come from nothing, the big bang theory coudlnt’ have started
I never said anything about the universe expanding
If it is God made it that way

But the Big Bang does describe an expanding universe.  If you’re saying that the Big Bang theory is invalid, presumably you’re saying that the Universe has not been expanding as it describes.

so the universe is expanding? So what darwin just used that as a way to get ppl to believe him, because it was already expanding
and even if the universe is expanding

…What? Darwin was a biologist, not a physicist.  Whether or not the Universe was expanding wasn’t particularly relevant to his studies.

the only way the universe could even have existed in the first place is if God was behind it

So you keep claiming.

so I keep proving.
But your not listening

I am listening, but you persistently refuse to provide any proof.

I have provided proof, you aren’t considering it

You keep saying, “In order for you claims to be true, something must come from nothing! Which can only happen with god! So nyahh!”  Is this the “proof” you’re referring to?

logicly anyway
Thats true, God is the only one who can do that
Because he is powerful.

You do realize that I’ve never claimed that “something came from nothing,” though, right?

I realize that you didn’t know that was what you were claiming

I’ve never claimed it. It’s something you keep ascribing to me, though I keep attempting to correct you.

lol whatever
you claimed it by saying that matter came from electromagnetic caused by a negitve charge
caused by lightning.

…Are you high? I never claimed that.

but you never said where the first thing came from

I said that, hypothetically, the original self-replicator might have been assembled by a reaction caused by an electric discharge, which could have come from a lightning strike.  I’m talking about matter being rearranged, not created.

right, and therefore something there has to have come from nothing
[thats what your claiming wether you know it or not

Something has to come from nothing in order for a chemical reaction to take place?

Yes, if someone powerful didn’t make the things that could cause that reaction.

Can you demonstrate that?

If you need me to demonstrate that, your either playing stupid
or your the one thats hammered

You should be able to demonstrate your claims, don’t you think?

I don’t need to because that claim, is pure logic

LOL. Okay. Pure logic means not having to justify your claims? Brilliant.

yes, because everyone should be able to see that thier true
If God wasn’t involved then somthing will have had to come from nothing.

Is that more pure logic, there?

Yes, it is. If there wasn’t something intelligent behind it there would’ve been nothing to react together

Must be handy not having to provide evidence for your claims.

Like your providing evidence, show me a frog turning into a cat

I don’t think that a frog would turn into a cat.

then you don’t believe in evolution.

😄 Evolution states that frogs turn into cats, huh? I’m learning all sorts of new things today.

Evolution states that fish turn into reptiles which turn into mamals which turn into monkeys which turn into humans

Wow! Really? That’s a new one on me.

Show me a monkey turning into a human.
why else do you think its called evolution?

Look– seriously, though, you’re being a moron. Evolution doesn’t state that humans evolved from monkeys, but that they possess a common ancestor.

I’ve spoken to dozens of evolutionests and they all believe what I’ve been telling you

No evolutionist I have ever met has believed that humans evolved from monkeys.

Every book I’ve read, every person I’ve talked to, every show I’ve watched believes that

Wow; that’s crazy. You must be talking to completely different people than make up the scientific mainstream.

how can you be the only one that dosen’t?

Oh, not just me; every evolutionist I’ve ever spoken to on the subject, including all of the major Darwinist writers.

public school books teach it, I’ve seen it!
haven’t you ever seen those pictures, monkey turning into man?

Seriously, though– try to listen to me for a second. You’re mistaken. Evolution states that humans and monkeys share an ancestor, not that one evolved into the other.   It’s a common misconception among creationists who, like you, don’t actually  know what they’re talking about.

lol right, and that ancestor would be?

I’m not sure, off the top off my head. Some form of primate, anyway.


Yes, but not all primates are monkeys.

I know that there is a God up there who loves you
And I really don’t understand why
The way you regect him and insult him day in and day out
But believe it or not he does love you, and one day you’ll know I’m right

Great argument there. “You don’t agree with me now, but you totally will in the future!”

because one day wether you like it or not you’ll be dead
nd if you don’t accept Christ you will be in Hell

Mhm. And if you leave a plate of milk and cookies out on Christmas eve, Santa will show up.

And you will wish that you had listened to me

I have listened to you. The fact is, you have no evidence for your “pure logic” claims.  I can hardly be expected to believe something for no reason, can I?

I’m very scared for you.
my pure logic claims say that nothing can come from nothing without Gods help and ino order for evolution and the big bang to be true
it has to have
do you understand that?

Your assertion that you don’t need to provide justification because it’s “pure logic” is nonsense.  Justification must be provided for any claim.

see there you go again, your saying yet again taht something can come from nothing, not in those exact words but you are all the same

I’ve never said that something came from nothing. I’ve never said words to that effect.   That’s a bizarre strawman argument which you seem obsessed with attaching to me, despite the fact that I refuse to support it.

ok then, provide me justification, on what started everything

I can’t say how the inception of the Universe occurred. No one can; we don’t presently have sufficient information.

you see? That is not Justification?
Do you call that Justification?
Neither do I
Your talking out of both sides of your mouth

Justification for what?

for claiming that the universe began without a God

The only claim I’ve made here is that we can’t currently know with certainty, because we don’t have enough data.

and how does that prove anything?

It shows that your assertion, because it is without evidence, is unjustified and irrational.

You claim that the universe was created without a God is that right?

I’d say that a god almost certainly does not exist, and that there’s no reason to think that the Universe was created by a god.

then Justify that to me, if God does not exist then how did the world start?
Justify your unbelife in God

The Earth was formed from nebular matter drawn together by gravity.

stop there

As for my lack of belief in god, there’s no evidence that a god exists.

the matter came from? the gravity came from?

Gravity is an effect of matter on space. As for where matter originally came from, we don’t have sufficient evidence to say with certainty.

There is also no evidence that the Big bang happened. NO real evidence

Actually, there’s heaps of evidence for the Big Bang. Would you like to hear some of it?

That is not justifying your disbeleife in God

Pointing out that there’s no evidence that a god exist doesn’t justify my lack of belief, huh?

Only the stuff that isn’t falsified and believe me, you won’t be able to find any
The evidence is that, nothing else could have possibly created the world
Because nothing but a God can create something from nothing

That’s another claim. Please justify it.

What that nobody but God can create something from nothing?

Well, first prove that something must have come from nothing. Then prove that.

ok, something must have come from nothing because nothing, can create itself, and if nothing can create itself then nothing could have
formed your matter or your gravity

We don’t yet know how matter and the physical laws originated, so far as I know.

You keep saying that, because its the only way to get out of my point

I’m not getting out of anything; I’m telling you a truth which you apparently don’t want to accept.

God can create something from nothing because he is all powerful, he can do anything.

Well, the Magical Space Unicorn is also all-powerful and can do anything.  So what makes your god any more likely a candidate than the Magical Space Unicorn?

Because nobody on earth believes in a magic space unicorn

So if someone believes something, that makes it more true?

nope, obviously not, because if that was true, evolution would be true because you believe in it.
there is absolutly no evidence for a magic space unicorn
God has evidence in the Bible

Okay, say I have a book that says the Magical Space Unicorn is real. What makes your book more credible than my book?

Because my book iis Gods word, it has prophicies in it that have come true
And your book doesn’t exist at all.

Well, my book is the word of the Magical Space Unicorn. And I’ll throw in a bunch of vague, ambiguous prophecies, some of which are sure to come true.

Not some, all of the prophicies would have to come true

Not all of the predictions in the Bible have come true.

Maybe not yet, but the only ones that haven’t God said would come true far in the future
Such as the world ending
That obviously hasn’t come to pass yet, but it will

Well, same goes for my book. The Magical Space Unicorn says that the prophecies that haven’t come true yet will come true in the future.

God gave time frames, Jesus was born, he was raised in three days, try predicting that in your unicorn book
All the prophicies that were supposed to come to pass in the past, have

Except, of course, things like the resurrection are not adequately documented.

yes they are, Read the Bible through again
He said that Jesus would be raised in three days

If I read the Bible through again some independent verification of the resurrection will pop out of nowhere?

And he was

According to the Bible, sure.

It says that the wise men would be led by a star to the massiah, and they were.

According to the Bible.

You can look it up.

But you can see how, if one didn’t blindly believe the words of the Bible, one might not find that a convincing example of “prophecy.”

there is def proof all over the place that the bible wasn’t writen by one person

I never claimed that the Bible was written by one person.

Then how do you explain more than one person writing it yet everything that one person said would come true, another person wrote coming
blah true
Well how do you explain it?

How do I explain that one person wrote that something would happen, and then later another person wrote that it happened?
Gosh, I dunno. I guess the only way that could imaginably happen would be if Jebus were magically manipulating events from Heaven.

Yep, another person who had probably never read the first one

You’re going to have to substantiate that claim.

What claim?

“another person who had probably never read the first one”

Look at Matthew a tax collector, he proabably never read any of the prophicies from the Biblical scrolls
Yet he wrote them down as they happened to Jesus.

How can you verify that Matthew was actually the author of the book attributed to him?

Because in the book he says I not Matthew, Me not Matthew.
Meaning he is the auther

So… you know it was written by Matthew because it says it was written by Matthew.

I know it was written by Matthew because it is the truth, who would want to give the credit to him?
If someone else wrote it they would take the credit for writing it.

In ancient times, writers often attributed their works to famous figures in order to borrow some of their prestige.

After all it would’ve had to been one of the disiples, with the paribles included and all.
Assuming that everything written in the Gospels is true, sure.

Look– believe what you like, but the truth is that the identities of the authors of the Gospels have never been conclusively determined.

I don’t believe that for a second.

That’s nice.

Its true, I don’t.
Matthew wrote the gosple of Matthew, John wrote the Gosple of John written by different ppl with different personalities.
And yet they tell of the same events.

I’m afraid I have to cut this short again. I’ll be on tomorrow, though, if you wish to try to scrounge up some evidence for your claims in the meantime.

you explain that to me just real fast.

Explain what? The fact that the Bible as assembled from texts talking about similar things?

how four different ppl can have completely different writing styles yet all say the same thing.

Different people write on similar subjects all the time. No magic necessary.

and they all tell about the same prophicies coming true.
And they all were diciples so only they would know about the paribels.

Another claim which you have no evidence for outside of “The Bible says it!” I assume.

And they all said the same thing about the same paribles.

Look– if you think that only supernatural influence can account for the fact that the Bible is somewhat coherent, you’re deranged.

The Bible is all coherent.
And the Bible wasn’t always in one piece.
It was all on scrolls and we connected them later.

I’ve already provided you with instances of contradiction in the Bible.

and I disproved that they were contridictions.

No you didn’t. You just handwaved them away by saying, “Well, maybe they were talking figuratively,” without showing me any reason to think that they were.
Anyway, I really must go.

I said he was, and I’m sure he was. Cya Mate
Have a good night at work